Evidence for God from Science

TallMan wrote:

cslewislover wrote: I would have no reason to doubt his integrity, and it doesn't serve your position well to impugn another Christian that way.

How do you judge people to be "Christian"?

I don't judge as you do. Only God can know for sure, since there are false prophets in the church. To say that tongues is a test for salvation is to not look at church history and the reality of all the ways the Holy Spirit works. Paul clearly says that not all people have all the gifts of the Spirit (notice that Paul never says that tongues is the sign of salvation). There are other Pentacostels that disagree with you, just as I quoted Chuck Smith. They do not believe it is the sign of salvation - it is a gift. They believe that the Holy Spirit indwells people and that there will be a born again experience, but it does not have to be tongues.

Regarding false prophets, there are also those who fake it, to fit in. I know someone who did that, and the rest of the people there thought it was real tongues. So you tell me how you judge. Lol. To judge in this manner, then, is man-based and fallible.

cslewislover wrote:And I actually don't see your point. The article describes the tongues at Pentecost . . . so? They were in the languages of men. The tongues Paul discusses in 1 Corinthians were not.

really? Where does scripture say that?
His and your whole argument is based on fallacy.

At Pentecost there were bi-lingual people from many countries.
The fact that they recognised real language shows that tongues is real language, that's all.
It dosn't show that there is another type of tongues when there are only non-bilingual people present.

Please answer the questions in my previous post instead of another copy-and-paste job for me to read through that doesn't . . this is not discussion.

I already quoted what Paul said in the previous entries. The tongues of men, and the tongues of Angels. The tongues of men did not need interpreters, at Pentecost. The tongues of angels need interpreters. Maybe I'm not reading carefully enough, but you seem to go back and forth on this. Something is weird about it. In any case, this is incredibly clear in the bible.

The reason why it may not appear to be more of a discussion to you, I guess, is because of what was already posted. Orthodox (conservative) Christianity does not agree with your interpretation of scripture. I was going to post some more on the issue of salvation and how it is carried out by the Trinity, and how we are to view it, but it would take some time. Besides that, I don't see that you want a discussion. You seem to be set in your interpretation and only want to make others believe it. I'm guessing that's why you started another thread.

cslewislover wrote:The text below is quoted passages from 1 Corinthians 14:5 Should All Speak in Tongues?, in Hard Sayings of the Bible, by Walter C. Kaiser Jr., et al (InterVarsity Press 1996), pp 610-613). I italicized it instead of doing quotes since there were so many internal quotes; I thought it would be easier to read this way (and help to indicate that it is not my own writing). I thought this was faster than writing a whole long post up myself.

...This analysis leads to these concluding, summary observations: None of the spiritual gifts is an absolute; only the way of love is. Therefore, neither the possession nor the exercise of any of them is a mark of spiritual superiority. Believers are to be open to the Spirit's gifts and when they receive them to exercise them gracefully and humbly. Any earnest seeking for particular gifts ought to be guided by the desire to be involved in strengthening the church so that the whole people of God may truly be the divinely ordered alternative to the brokenness of human society.

Well quoted - Tallman, how then can this be in error as it is all in God's word?

Tallman wrote:....His and your whole argument is based on fallacy.

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B. W. wrote: . . ....This analysis leads to these concluding, summary observations: None of the spiritual gifts is an absolute; only the way of love is. Therefore, neither the possession nor the exercise of any of them is a mark of spiritual superiority. Believers are to be open to the Spirit's gifts and when they receive them to exercise them gracefully and humbly. Any earnest seeking for particular gifts ought to be guided by the desire to be involved in strengthening the church so that the whole people of God may truly be the divinely ordered alternative to the brokenness of human society.
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Well quoted - Tallman, how then can this be in error as it is all in God's word?

It completely misses the point that I made early on in this discussion.
You and others have just ignored it too .. . that "the gifts" do not refer to what different people get when they become Christians, but the meetings-use, giving to the church of what all have for private use.

"the gifts" passage also lists words of wisdom, knowledge, faith etc as well as tongues.
Will you say that only some Christians get each of these other attributes too?

TallMan wrote:It completely misses the point that I made early on in this discussion.
You and others have just ignored it too .. . that "the gifts" do not refer to what different people get when they become Christians, but the meetings-use, giving to the church of what all have for private use.

"the gifts" passage also lists words of wisdom, knowledge, faith etc as well as tongues.
Will you say that only some Christians get each of these other attributes too?

How about the gifts listed in Romans 12:6-8 (prophecy, service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leadership, and showing mercy), or Galatians 5:22-23 (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control), or Isaiah 11:2 (wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and the fear of the Lord). Aren't you ignoring those gifts? Why the cherry-picking?

I think the thing being missed is the context of 1 Cor.

Why was it written? What is Paul addressing and why?

jlay wrote:I think the thing being missed is the context of 1 Cor.

Why was it written? What is Paul addressing and why?

That's why I posted that article, the one from Hard Sayings of the Bible. But it's "false, written by a non-Christian, apparently, etc. etc." I think 1 Corinthians is actually easy to understand if read, simply read - keeping the verses in context.

Agree CS.

It is pretty obvious that Paul is, in a very clever way, telling the Corinthians to stop practicing false signs.

Let's not all forget is the greatest gift of love and that is Jesus Christ sent to us reconciling us back to God! Greatest gift is truly Love...

As for Gifts of the Spirit, when these divide believers then there is no edification of the Church. When one exalts one gift over the others that neglects edification of the body of Christ.

Do I speak in tongues? YES. Does that make me better than another? NO- absolutely NOT!

Not all speak in tongues and not all have the same gifts as it is written…

1 Co 12:25-31, “…that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

“27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

“29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.”

But what we all do do have is the omni-personal transformation into the most excellent way… (1 Co 13:all). To get there, the Lord exposes our lack of reflecting His Christ like virtue of Love and from this, we repent and grow as the Lord wills.

Tallman, from one tongue talker to another be aware of division as that is not of the Lord. Spiritual Pride is something many need to repent of…so look to yourself and have a nice day!
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It really is...disenheartening, that this issue is so divisive. I think it's a far more heated debate than anything else that we as Christians discuss and I really am sorry to say that I am not above it.

I took a step back to examine my own heart with regards to this issue and realized that if someone wants to speak in a manner that I think is silly and unsupported by scripture, but they themselves feel that is a gift from God and they do it in all earnestness to glorify God, then what gives me the right to critisize them in their worship. Brothers and sisters, we're not talking about deflowering virgins or drinking poison as an act of worship, we're talking about human voices making noises. And if I don't feel that type of worship is edifying then I won't worship with them, my apologies, no slight intended. Do we need to combat false doctrine? Absolutely. Iffy doctrine? Let's take it on a case by case basis and do it in love.

I wanted to post this, not to admonish or preach, I just wanted to share my heart and as is being discussed in another forum, repent.

Philippians 2:3 (English Standard Version)
3Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

I pray that this would not be just "good advice," but a reality in my heart.

Warhoop,

I agree that it, the it referring to speaking in tongues, *shouldn't* be so decisive. We, however, are not the ones who are mking it so. The question, now, it seems, is not whether scripture says that someone may speak in tongues. There are several of us who do so. I am not one of them, personally I don't understand it nor see why God would have that be a gift, to speak gibberish and reqire yet another believer to acct as interpreter. But I am perfctly okay with it being part of someoe else's worship.

The question now is whether tongues is required or an absolute result of salvation and because of this being an absolute result, the corollary being that we can assume or judge someone to not be a Christian if they don't speak in tongues. *That* is the issue that is causing so much division and rightly so!! I don't think there can be any compromise here.

zoegirl wrote:Warhoop,

I agree that it, the it referring to speaking in tongues, *shouldn't* be so decisive. We, however, are not the ones who are mking it so. The question, now, it seems, is not whether scripture says that someone may speak in tongues. There are several of us who do so. I am not one of them, personally I don't understand it nor see why God would have that be a gift, to speak gibberish and reqire yet another believer to acct as interpreter. But I am perfctly okay with it being part of someoe else's worship.

The question now is whether tongues is required or an absolute result of salvation and because of this being an absolute result, the corollary being that we can assume or judge someone to not be a Christian if they don't speak in tongues. *That* is the issue that is causing so much division and rightly so!! I don't think there can be any compromise here.

I agree completely. Questioning one's salvation based upon whether or not they "speak in tongues" is not just aberrant, but, and not to put too fine a point on it, a work of Satan and as such mandates a response. The point I apparently fumbled in making is that we, or maybe just I, should not tear tear down one's style of worship, regardless of what whether or not I believe that worship is grounded in scripture.

warhoop wrote:It really is...disenheartening, that this issue is so divisive. I think it's a far more heated debate than anything else that we as Christians discuss and I really am sorry to say that I am not above it.

I took a step back to examine my own heart with regards to this issue and realized that if someone wants to speak in a manner that I think is silly and unsupported by scripture, but they themselves feel that is a gift from God and they do it in all earnestness to glorify God, then what gives me the right to critisize them in their worship. Brothers and sisters, we're not talking about deflowering virgins or drinking poison as an act of worship, we're talking about human voices making noises. And if I don't feel that type of worship is edifying then I won't worship with them, my apologies, no slight intended. Do we need to combat false doctrine? Absolutely. Iffy doctrine? Let's take it on a case by case basis and do it in love.

I wanted to post this, not to admonish or preach, I just wanted to share my heart and as is being discussed in another forum, repent.

Philippians 2:3 (English Standard Version)
3Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

I pray that this would not be just "good advice," but a reality in my heart.

Thank you Warhoop!

Very good post! You are indeed learning the most excellent way

...and sharing with others here how to do so as well
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um... i can't believe this thread has gotten so long without any mention of the science behind this interesting phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

I remember someone complaining earlier that tongues Christians speak in nowadays is just gibberish, and that in the NT it was actual languages they didn't know. Well, there was one woman at my old church who spoke in tongues and then went on a missions trip (sorry, I forget where) and learned that her "tongues" actually was another language -- THEIR language. So it may sound like gibberish to us, but you never know if it's some tribal language in Africa.

And as to the wikipedia link posted, I disagree with it being a learned behavior. At camp when they discussed tongues, some people received the gift and some did not, though all were exposed to it. If it were learned, surely some could have at least faked it.

I am not saying tongues is a requirement for salvation, or a sign of special closeness to God. But I'm not dismissing it as foolish and aberrant, either. If God wants people to speak in other languages, then they will. I don't think there's a limit to what God can do, or how He lets His people worship Him. Just like I believe some have the gift of healing, but you don't have to heal somebody to be saved.

psalms55.21 wrote:um... i can't believe this thread has gotten so long without any mention of the science behind this interesting phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

It was mentioned in either this thread of the other one going on at the same time. Apparently no one cared to go into in detail, is all. I do not speak in tongues myself, but the modern instances I've heard of - where people speak in a real language that is unknown and foreign to them - would not have been able to be studied. The studies in that wiki article are just from pentecostal groups that claim to be speaking in a heavenly language. Not that it isn't relevant, but there is more than one tongue being discussed. Well, if you can call all this a discussion.