Evidence for God from Science

"Nearly 90 million people — about one-third of the population below the age of 65 spent a portion of either 2007 or 2008 without health coverage."-National Coalition on Health Care http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml (Americans at Risk: One in Three Uninsured, Familes USA, March 2009).

Houston, we have a problem:

How Many Americans Are Uninsured?

Several studies estimate the number of uninsured Americans. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, their latest data available.1

The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, using the Medical Expenditure Panel Survey (MEPS) estimated that the percentage of uninsured Americans under age 65 represented 27 percent of the population. According to the MEPS data, nearly 54 million Americans under the age of 65 were uninsured in the first-half of 2007. 2

A recent study shows that based on the effects of the recession alone (not job loss), it is projected that nearly seven (7) million Americans will lose their health insurance coverage between 2008 and 2010. 3 Urban Institute researchers estimate that if unemployment reaches 10 percent, another six (6) million Americans will lose their health insurance coverage. Taking these numbers together, it is conceivable that by next year, 57 to 60 million Americans will be uninsured.
The Urban Institute estimates that under a worse case scenario, 66 million Americans will be uninsured by 2019. 4

Nearly 90 million people — about one-third of the population below the age of 65 spent a portion of either 2007 or 2008 without health coverage.5

Who Are the Uninsured?

The large majority of the uninsured (85 percent) are native or naturalized citizens.6

Nearly 1.3 million full-time workers lost their health insurance in 2006. 1

Over 8 in 10 uninsured people come from working families — almost 70 percent from families with one or 7
The percentage and the number of uninsured Hispanics increased to 32.1 percent and overall to 15 million in 2007.1
Why is the Number of Uninsured People Increasing?

Even if employees are offered coverage on the job, they can't always afford their portion of the premium. Health insurance premiums have increased 119 percent for employers since 1999 and employee spending for health insurance coverage (employee's share of family coverage) has increased 117 percent between 1999 and 2008.7

Rapidly rising health insurance premiums are the main reason cited by all small firms for not offering coverage. Health insurance premiums are rising at extraordinary rates. The average annual increase in inflation has been 2.5 percent while health insurance premiums for small firms have escalated an average of 12 percent annually.7

How Does Being Uninsured Harm Individuals and Families?

Studies estimate that the number of excess deaths among uninsured adults age 25-64 is in the range of 22,000 a year. This mortality figure is more than the number of deaths from diabetes (17,500) within the same age group.8

Lack of insurance compromises the health of the uninsured because they receive less preventive care, they are diagnosed at more advanced disease stages, and once diagnosed, tend to receive less therapeutic care and have higher mortality rates than insured individuals.9
Controlling for age, race, sex, and income, uninsured cancer patients are 1.6 times more likely than insured patients to die within five years of diagnosis. 10
The high cost of health care can damage the overall economic well-being of families. One in three low-income parents without coverage report medical bills have a major financial impact on their families.11

On average, the uninsured are 9 to 10 times more likely to forgo medical care because of cost and twice as likely to have medical debt. 9
The uninsured are increasingly paying “up front” -- before services will be rendered. When they are unable to pay the full medical bill in cash at the time of service, they can be turned away except in life-threatening circumstances.12

Access to an emergency room for uninsured patients does not qualify as access to coordinated care. While physicians are required to stabilize patients in an emergency, they are not required to treat the condition comprehensively. 13

Over the last decade, disparities between the uninsured and insured widened in access to a usual source of care, annual check-ups, and preventive care, and are the greatest in disparities and our growing. 6

Conservatives never have ensured and presently continue to resist attempts to ensure that all Americans have access to medical care. They have not and will never seek to insure all Americans. This is why their arguments must be discarded. Because if they win, Americans continue to die without medical care. If they lose, there will be a process of adjustment but Americans will finally have access to medical care. EOM.

With the Obama admin and those he has surrounded himself with - far Leftist, Neo Marxist - socialist extremist - I do not trust the Dem's and Obama. The import of neo Marxist thought is to bring down the USA by destroying its economy. 900 billion dollars on top of the other massive spending is way too much.

Remember who said - do not waste a good crisis!

A stroke of the pen can legeslate much to correct the abuses of the Health Insurance industry with far less cost to the economy.

Yes Health refrom is needed but not the kind Obama is offeringf -

A swindler will never be forth right and tell you the truth in order to sell you a bill of goods. They mix half truths baited with lies to swindle you out of your inherintence. Remeber Obama himself did state on many occassion that the US Consitution is a flawed document. The Left, uses the principles of malice to use our own laws against us in order to bring about the change they believe in.

When Obama shouted - Change we can believe in - the American people should have asked who were (and was) the we he was talking about and have him define the we in specific terms - it is the We of the Left whom he was talking about not all Americans. That is how the left swindles people.

Therefore - this rushed job of Health care - is a snow job and must be stopped and more level heads can fix the problems more rationally.

Age - if you are at a used car lot to buy a car or at the appliance store to buy a stove and the sales person is over pushy, manipulating you to make a quick decision, promising your purchase will save you money - do you buy or run out of there and tell all about this high pressure sales man who was trying to rip you off?

Health care arguments -

We need It now will

It will not add to the national debt

Millions unisured - Must save them

the evil people who do not have Health insurance must pay 3 grand in fines if found w/out Health Insurance

Evil Mobseters do not know what the are talking about - don't listen to them as they have nothing to offer as we do

We Must Act Now - Hurry - limited time offer!

Hear the Used care salesman or Appliance Salesperson:

You need this item!

You need it now - it an emergency - think of life without this fine Item!

It will not add to your debt - it is interst free and no payments up to the first 12 Months!

This item will save you time and money

Others who do not own this item, elsewhere must pay more than you - this is a great deal - how can you refuse?

The Competion is wrong - only we can make and sell this item at such ubeatable prices - don't listen to them
as they have nothing to offer as we do!!

You Must Act Now - Hurry - limited time offer!

Not much difference in my opinion...
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We all agree Obama's solution is not ideal B.W.; however, no other plan will ensure all Americans have access to medical care if they need it. The Republicans have had many many opportunities to bring reform on an issue that affects many many people in a material way. This is life versus death/health versus suffering/ability to earn versus disabled. It is simply not OK nor desirable to leave Americans to suffer, become permanently disabled, and die because of a lack of access to medical care. And that is exactly what the right in this country has fought for. It's unacceptable. They had their chance. If government's entry into the vaccum they left behind them is invasive it is because of their negligence and active resistance to what's needed rather than taking a leadership role in changing it with a better plan.

As a result, their cries about Obama's plan and attempts to put forth "solutions" that only make their own health care more comfortable while STILL actively resisting seeing poor suffering Americans have access to medical care fall on deaf ears.

Hi,

I am from the UK and I am very grateful for the NHS. My family is covered for every eventuality and I still have the option to buy health insurance if I am not happy with NHS treatment. A gov. run program is good enough for your troops and seniors. You trust gov. to run the military why not health care? Members of the gov have a bottom line they have to answer to and that is the people so they can get re-elected. The insurance companies have a bottom line they have to answer to, profit margins and share holders. Who is being kept the most honest? Who has your interests at heart?

Nat

ps, Why is health care only really up for debate now, in the last 8 years when you had GWB no health reform was made. If Republicans are so conserned about health care reform why didnt they do something when they were in power. Are republicans more concerned about providing health care for the poorest americans or making sure nothing interfers with precious capitalism.

Hi,

I am from the UK and I am very grateful for the NHS. My family is covered for every eventuality and I still have the option to buy health insurance if I am not happy with NHS treatment. A gov. run program is good enough for your troops and seniors. You trust gov. to run the military why not health care? Members of the gov have a bottom line they have to answer to and that is the people so they can get re-elected. The insurance companies have a bottom line they have to answer to, profit margins and share holders. Who is being kept the most honest? Who has your interests at heart?

Nat

ps, Why is health care only really up for debate now, in the last 8 years when you had GWB no health reform was made. If Republicans are so conserned about health care reform why didnt they do something when they were in power. Are republicans more concerned about providing health care for the poorest americans or making sure nothing interfers with precious capitalism.

Here's what happens when you lose your real estate job in a real estate meltdown and your medical insurance, then your 401ks and savings, and then when most vulnerable are stricken by severe arthritis while healing prayer fails:



I'll be taking my fourth dose of 10mg of methotrexate tomorrow. It has started working. I can feel it. But my wrists are still sore and my I fear damage is still being done. Here's my left hand. It went bad about six months ago. 1 year ago I was working out four times a week at a local gym doing a full weight workout including wrist exercises with weights. I could bench 250 lbs 20 times in a row no problem. Now I'm overweight with a deformed left hand and a right hand that is impacted. I cannot bend those fingers. I cannot make a fist. Those are three swan fingers and they are locked rigid like that.

You don't want this to happen to you. It affects your life, your ability to earn, everything in very real ways. Hopefully my rheumatologist knows what to do. Hopefully. I see him next Tuesday.

This was fully preventable but I lived in a country that doesn't cover preexisting conditions or have a national health care plan. No it's not Mexico or Panama. It's the USA if you can believe it. So I became deformed as a result. Eventually my unemployment ran out and I became finally eligible for some low level medical care through the county. Yipee.

natcat86 wrote:...ps, Why is health care only really up for debate now, in the last 8 years when you had GWB no health reform was made. If Republicans are so conserned about health care reform why didnt they do something when they were in power. Are republicans more concerned about providing health care for the poorest americans or making sure nothing interfers with precious capitalism.

It is because the Dem's thwarted and demonized everything the Rep's tried to do. Review the news cast from 2000 to 2008 and discover why...

People know Health Care reform is needed; however, the Dem's plan will bankrupt the country and only serves to empower the Dem Party - not provide real health care reform or real care. The House Bill is over 1900 pages long. Do you trust those that no longer listen to its citizenry and no longer represent us? We are treated like dumb subjects by the powers that be.

Bush was the Dem's best friend - he never bashed or threatened a news organization or protesters that disagreed with him. He caved in often to the Dem's on Education as well as Housing Loans as well as Medicare. He and the Rep's began acting like Dem's and lost the election mostly because of this.

In order to blame Bush - you must blame the Dem's and the News Media for thwarting Bush at every turn and demonizing the Republicans. Now the Democrats are in power and they are acting worse than Bush ever did: bashing those that protest against their policies, threatening news organizations, covering thier political rear-ends, being absolutely non-bipartisan, spending more than the Rep's ever did under Bush, etc and etc.

Worst is their patronizing the citizens of the US with thoughts of Health Care Reform when it is nothing more than a power grab that will bankrupt America so that it's currency is switch to become based on natural resources and property that interestingly is being bought by foreign powers. They exploit the sick for a polictcal absolute power grab in order to control is citizens to march to the party line, or else. Sickening...

Government and certain Industries want to make America and govern America in the same manner as the “Company Store” concept of over a hundred years ago in the industry created workers paradise. Only their products are monopolized and all competition stopped.

The American people are beginning to wake up and realize they have been bamboozled by the Left (Dem's) and lied too. You cannot trust their version of Health Care Reform, not at all. Bitter lesson but one we need to be awakened too - We are being played.

Under Socialism - neo Marxism the Govt (State) gets all the wealth. Politicians have the wealth in order to control people. Redistributive Justice means everyone gets a shinning new penny, barely enough to live on, while they live in luxury. If you do not support the party line — they take away your penny. It is about absolute control and nothing about fairness.

Our Nation's founders wanted to escape and stop such type tyrannical control from Govt happening.

Current Health Care will bankrupt this country, forcing us to change our currency to become based upon our natural recourses and the property we have (which interestingly we are not permitted to use!) to whomever we own debt to — China, Russia, European Union interest.

To pay these nations back — they come and take these from us. We as people have a shinny new penny but are enslaved as these nations now can come and rip our resource away from us and we are not employed but rather turned into slaves. Just think — no tree huggers can save the Redwoods or Yellowstone or our coast lines! Coal Strip mines, etc and etc, in the worst way…

All done under the guise of redistributive justice so that evil America pays back the world for exploiting it: that is where we are headed. Sorry, America is not the evil exploiter. Who is the nation that gives the most and helps the most during a natural disaster to the world? That ability is being stripped away as well.

America needs to wake up because 2010 maybe too late…
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I seem to recall the Republicans thwarting and demonizing everything the Democrats tried to do with health care in this country. They stonewalled Clinton's attempt to reform it and afterwards the situation got a lot worse.

Bush was bad for America plain and simple. He doubled the largest deficit the world has ever seen in a mere eight years, mismanaged our economic policy so bad he finally said he had to "suspend free enterprise to save the free enterprise system", and then passed this mess that happened under his presidency onto the next guy. The list of Bush's negligence is long and dire.

If we had stayed out of Iraq and managed our demographic and economy properly, there would be plenty of money for a national health care plan. And to be honest, it wouldn't have to look like Obama's either. It could be implemented by the states at the state level with the federal government overseeing it.

But that's not on the table. Obama Healthcare is. And we do need healthcare. I have some pictures from another guy I can post. He's only in his twenties and his hands are deformed much worse than mine. His life is ruined. Same situation. Preventable but no healthcare! We're going down like flies out here and all you guys are doing are playing really bad politics.

Our country is already in the red and has been for a long long time. Obamacare isn't going to push it over the edge any more than Bush's 8 trillion dollar war games are. What it might do is force us to make the necessary changes to return to a healthy economy. And people will be healthy. Sacrificing millions and millions of American's health, well-being, and lives after supporting an adminstration that sank our economy makes you Republicans doubly culpable in my view.

A vote for Obama healthcare is a vote for the American people. Goblins and ghouls aren't going to result from voting yes but healthy people will. We can have health care for our population and a well run economy if we structure them right.

And we do need healthcare.

Yes, we do. But we don't need the system that Dems are offering. For the record, Republicans have offered hundreds of amendments on things EVERYONE agrees on, and they get voted down BY DEMOCRATS. Why? Because this isn't about healthcare. It's about control. Here is a list of things that could be passed TODAY but the Dems simply refuse because it doesn't give them enough power:

1. (The obvious) Tort reform. See Texas.
2. Allow the purchase of insurance across state lines
3. Tax credits up to the poverty line to help people purchase private insurance
4. Encourage the opening of small medical clinics staffed by PAs and NPs

In addition to those four things, all of which would dramatically reduce the cost of healthcare generally, we need to focus on Medicare to get the inefficencies out so that we can actually pay doctors what they are worth. Next, we need to put an increased focus on preventative healthcare. Finally, after all that is done, we can look at solving the problem of the small percentage of people who, like you, don't have insurance because they CAN'T get it. I would be perfectly willing to look at a gov't program to cover such situations, provided it was restricted to those who could be proven were uninsurable. The details could be worked out.

There are other things, of course, but these would provide a great start. The Dems just don't like these ideas because all of them take control out of the hands of government and put it in the hands of people. There is plenty we can do. We just don't want the government taking over our lives, which is what this system will do.

edit: And for those who don't know, the idea the Republicans are just opposing to be opposing is silly. They've offered their own plan:

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/17 ... 3897.shtml

If implemented, people like AoK could get coverage, but the Dems don't want it. Why? Because it doesn't give more power to the federal government. AGAIN, yes, morally speaking, we need to fix some of the problems with our healt insurance system. That doesn't mean that we have to destory and redesign the entire health care system we have today. There are plenty of things we can all support.

Show me a single Republican piece of legislation that has EVER covered all Americans. Just one. You can't. Because it doesn't exist!

The Republicans approach has been to resist legislation that would do exactly that rather than to take a leadership role in seeing that done. Now they are pushed into a corner as a result of their own muleheadedness and so presto now they want to control what's happening at the last minute. But the rabbit still doesn't cover all Americans.

I'm not a Democrat by the way. I'm an independent. I want what is desirable and necessary. Healthcare is both. The real problem with Republican legislation is it's meant to make their healthcare more comfortable. It certainly doesn't cover all Americans. Therefore, it must be discarded.

If it's either Obamacare for all Americans or Republican's attempt to make healthcare better for themselves. Obamacare it is! Get ready it's coming. I can hardly wait.

I've not had a chance to go back and read this entire thread...

However - AoK, get ready for good times! Our health service in Britian, while far from being perfect, is fantastic.

touchingcloth wrote:I've not had a chance to go back and read this entire thread...

However - AoK, get ready for good times! Our health service in Britian, while far from being perfect, is fantastic.

So I've heard!

ageofknowledge wrote:Here's what happens when you lose your real estate job in a real estate meltdown and your medical insurance, then your 401ks and savings, and then when most vulnerable are stricken by severe arthritis while healing prayer fails:

Man I'd hate to be in your shoes age... I'm sorry to see this. Plus you are still unemployed and can't find any health insurance? Don't look at me, I voted for Obama on this.

On another note, I've heard the dutch (dual-level system) really have a good health insurance plan.

"A key feature of the Dutch system is that premiums are set at a flat rate for all purchasers regardless of health status or age. Risk variances between funds due to the different risks presented by individual policy holders are compensated through risk equalization and a common risk pool which makes it more attractive for insurers to attract risky clients. Funding for all short term health care is 50% from employers, and 45 percent from the insured person and 5% by the government. Children until age 18 are covered for free. Those on low incomes receive compensation to help them pay their insurance. Premiums paid by the insured are about 100 € per month (about US$146 in Sept. 2009) with variation of about 5% between the various competing insurers.

Prior to 2006 (and since 1941) there were two separate systems of (short-term) health insurance: public and private. The public insurance system was executed by non-profit "health funds", and financed by premiums taken directly out of the wages (together with income taxes). Everyone earning less than a certain threshold income could make use of the public insurance system. However, anyone with income over that threshold was obliged to have private insurance instead."

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Netherlands

No you don't GMAN.

But it gets worse. On top of everything I have to deal with add one more thing. A person who lives here is a high school graduate who went to a whole food seminar and bought a DVD and now thinks he is an expert on medicine. He spends much of his time running me down because he believes my condition is fully curable if I would just eat more vegetables and fish oil. He doesn't let up either and I hope it doesn't put my living situation in jeopardy.

I just sent him the following email today:

--------------------------- Email:

Assertions:

1. Eating right, exercising, abstaining from alcohol, smoking, and illegal drugs benefit everyone's health. <--This is a true statement.

2. Therefore doing these things ensure you can never get sick or cure an incurable disease. (--This is a false statement.

I have psoriasis and severe psoriatic arthritis. This is listed as an incurable life long condition on every list of incurable disease from every scholarly source.

An introduction to psoriatic arthritis from the U.S. Federal Drug Administration website in conjunction with an advocacy organization called Psoriasis Cure Now (despite their name they do not assert there is a cure only that they wish there was one) clearly explains that there is no cure for psoriatic arthritis and why there is not cure:

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/DOCKETS/docket ... tach-1.pdf

Notice both the FDA and the advocacy group stating:

“Psoriatic arthritis is an incurable disease that causes inflammation in and around the joints, and usually also involves the skin symptoms of psoriasis. While mild for many, its symptoms can also be disabling; and as a progressive disease, it often becomes more problematic over time. Morning stiffness, join pain and fatigue are also common for those with psoriatic arthritis. The joints in some cases become disfigured.”

Every regionally accredited school of medicine asserts that it is incurable as well. The University of Washington sums up this position stating:

“Is psoriatic arthritis Curable? Psoriatic arthritis is treatable, but not curable.”

http://www.orthop.washington.edu/uw/tab ... fault.aspx

Internationally renowned group medical practices such as the Mayo Clinic all state:

“No cure for psoriatic arthritis exists, so the focus is on controlling symptoms and preventing damage to your joints. Without treatment — and regular exercise — psoriatic arthritis may be disabling.”

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/psoria ... is/DS00476

Medline Plus, a government sponsored effort that brings together authoritative information from the National Library of Medicine (NLM), the National Institutes of Health (NIH), and other government agencies and health-related organizations states:

“Psoriasis is a chronic and incurable autoimmune disease in which faulty signals from the immune system lead to inflamed, scaly skin lesions that can itch, crack, bleed and be extremely painful. Psoriasis lesions generally appear on the joints, limbs and scalp but can appear anywhere on the body, covering some people from head to toe. More than 5 million Americans, and therefore in the range of 800,000 people served by Medicare (2% of 40 million), have been diagnosed with psoriasis and/or psoriatic arthritis. Psoriatic arthritis, a degenerative disease of the joints and connective tissues that affects up to 20% or perhaps even more of patients with psoriasis, is often misdiagnosed or diagnosed late.”

The National Library of Medicine http://www.nlm.nih.gov/cgi/mesh/2009/MB ... w=expanded states it is “a life long condition” and that “there is no known prevention.”

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000434.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000413.htm

The Department of Health and Human Services states:

“People with psoriasis who have [this] incurable, chronic, life controlling disease have only in recent times begun to have some hope that their disease will ultimately be treated and their lives given some peace and meaning.“

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/98/ ... 3468t1.rtf

The aggregate of scholarly peer-reviewed literature in medical and scientific databases in schools of medicine and government databases along with the consensus of the licensed medical and regionally accredited scientific community all in agreement together assert unequivocally that psoriatic arthritis can be helped by a an anti-inflammatory healthy diet and lifestyle but cannot be cured by it. They also state it is a progressive condition in many cases, such as mine, that untreated can result in deformity and eventually disability. (I'm at the deformity stage).

Now are you honestly telling me Frank that they are all in league in a world conspiracy to lie to humanity (after taking a solemn oath not to [e.g. the Hippocratic Oath taken by doctors swearing to ethically practice medicine]) and that as a carpenter and layperson going to a seminar where you saw a DVD that described (accurately and/or inaccurately) a relationship between eating right and the modern human's physiology that I can suspend treatment and eat a diet recommended by you and the organization you are representing and my body will cure itself of psoriatic arthritis with the symptoms disappearing; that the condition will go into remission; that it will not progress causing further deformity, deterioration, or disability.

If you and your organization will sign off on that, I will put my health at risk for permanent disability and try it even though I have already tried it and it didn't work (I was on a special fish oil and whole food anti-inflammatory diet for a year up in Big Bear and still worsened while on it incurring the joint deformity I have now). If you won't, then you honestly don't believe in what you're saying enough to put your beliefs, which directly contradict the aggregate of scholarly literature and thought on the matter, on the line.

-----------------------------End of Email



No GMAN you really don't want to be me. Go to bed each night and thank God you aren't me. And do it sincerely. The only reason I stick around is because I'm a Christian and adhere to a Christian view of the world and Christian ethics which force me to go to the bitter end before entrance to heaven. If it wasn't for the truth of knowing God's will on the matter via scripture, I would have already moved on to "greener pastures." I know the Republicans here consider me a "thief" on Medi-Cal "stealing" from them because for the past few months I've received some treatment finally (the fact I worked and paid taxes for 30 years before my fall from grace is immaterial in their philosophy); however, I'm curious is it a bigger sin to sign up for Medi-Cal and receive treatment if eligible or is it a bigger sin if you kill yourself to avoid a painful homeless starving to death deforming in the bushes somewhere short existence. I think their position is that all sins are equally wrong so they would be the same.

ageofknowledge wrote: No GMAN you really don't want to be me. Go to bed each night and thank God you aren't me. And do it sincerely.

I'm sorry for you, but I've got my own demons to fight too.. I'm partly crippled myself, I blew out my back 12 years ago, doctors told me that they won't operate on it which leaves me here partly confined to the house. On top of that I've lost both parents, rather young. I'm faced to live life completely on my own, living alone, I have absolutely no family support here in California. If I get sick, I'm toast.. Last year, I almost had to call a cab to get home from the hospital.