Infinite punishment for finite sins

[jlay]

I'm interested too, how one can as a blanket statement assert that every element of scripture has only one truth. That's contraindicated on its face by the common belief that certain prophecies have both an immediate short term understanding contemporary to the original hearers and yet serve as well as a type of Christ or a longer term prophecy.

J.Davis wrote:
There are many, many beliefs in the world but only one God, one true word of God, one true interpretation of scripture (even if one scripture has many elements, each element has one truth) and one way out of hell. And there is no way in the world that it is the Annihilationist way.

Maybe you guys are debating semantics, as I see that J.Davis inferred thatwhen he said 'many elements.'
A scripture is not going to have two applications or interpretations that contradict.

[Canuckster1127]

What do you base that belief upon Jlay? Is there scripture itself that teaches you that? Or is it an underlying assumption that is believed to be self-evident?

How would you describe the manner in which the NT interprets the OT? Is it always making an application in which there is only one possible way to understand it? Does it sometimes use the OT in a manner to make a point or analogy that is not how our exegetical approaches today would provide an interpretation?

You've introduced the additional provision that scripture isn't going to have two application or interpretations that contradict? Yet, we have seemingly orthodox people who come to radically different and in some cases polar opposite conclusions on issues based upon their interpretation and systematizing of Scripture. What do we do then?

I'm not promoting skepticism in asking these questions. I'm sincerely interested as to where this concept is coming from, and why we seemingly ignore the things like how the NT interprets the OT and how the Jewish tradition in the Talmud and Mishnah interpret things.

Even assuming a greco, deductive reasoning based approach, it's not hard to find early church fathers from similar traditions coming to radically different conclusions on issues, based on the same scripture or the same body of scriptures. If we accept the premise that there is one and only one corresponding interpretation or understanding, how do we reconcile that, and do we allow that the seeming dichotomies on issues we create (eg. Predestination vs. Free-Will) may be an inadequate construct, of which neither is exclusively true?

We throw things out there are times that sound like they're indisputable but I wonder is we realize how easy it is to make scripture subject to the interpretative framework we construct to approach it and in so doing elevate ourselves over it.

[jlay]

The belief that two true interpretations of the same scripture should not conflict?

I think, at least I hope, we are looking at this from different points. God's word does not contradict itself. Do man's interpretations contradict? You bet. Perhaps I should have been more specific.

Even assuming a greco, deductive reasoning based approach, it's not hard to find early church fathers from similar traditions coming to radically different conclusions on issues, based on the same scripture or the same body of scriptures. If we accept the premise that there is one and only one corresponding interpretation or understanding, how do we reconcile that, and do we allow that the seeming dichotomies on issues we create (eg. Predestination vs. Free-Will) may be an inadequate construct, of which neither is exclusively true?

The interpretations of man, his theology, his systems can certainly contradict. So, are we in disagreement here? I'm not saying there aren't contradictory interpretations, theologies, etc. I'm saying that scripture does not contradict itself. God is not a God of confusion. If the scriptures are rightly divided then they will not contradict.

[J.Davis]

There are many, many beliefs in the world but only one God, one true word of God, one true interpretation of scripture (even if one scripture has many elements, each element has one truth) and one way out of hell. And there is no way in the world that it is the Annihilationist way.

I am curious how you can prove your interpretation is the correct one and no other.

I'm interested too, how one can as a blanket statement assert that every element of scripture has only one truth.

Ye have read, but ye have not understood....I’M JOKING!!!!

Guy’s...That only say’s that God tells the truth and can not lie. I said, even if one scripture has many elements, each element has one truth. It basically say's the same thing B.W’s post say's (you guy’s didn't pick on him ..JK). You can find the lie by showing what is true concerning God. So, in short...you find the lie...the truth is already established. I did not say that my interpretation was the only true one. I said (because of what has been discussed in this thread so far and weighing Annihilationist beliefs against God’s character and word etc) that the Annihilationist way is a lie. That is my opinion given what I know about the facts. But I am in no way so arrogant as to believe that I can not be wrong, I mean, it may actually happen one day..lol.

But I do believe that I’m the best there is ...Of coarse...others can feel this way too...but it’s probably a lie..LOL

Now, don't go changing the subject on me....We are all in the same boat, just looking for the truth.

[Sudsy]

To J. Davis -

If God wanted to do what the bible say’s he will do, and that is have never ending torment for the unsaved. Than I am ok with that because I trust his ways. It does not matter to me…people misinterpret the bible all the time.

And you have arrived at a point to know the exact truth on this matter with your interpretation of scripture. I guess you must be a candidate to be a future world leader of religion. I didn't realize you were infallible. J. Davis, it is one thing to express your views on scripture with much conviction but when you declare that your interpretation is the absolute truth you are indicating a very elite attitude about what you think you know about the Bible.

You criticize the 'A' view as thinking of God as evil if He follows through with the 'T' view of unending torment and say that this is not relective of the character of God. Don't you see that this is your interpretation of the character of God through scriptures (and one I do not see at all) and 'A' view people are not saying that God is evil but rather because God is not evil but good, He would not cause anyone to suffer endless torment.

We sing a little song that goes 'God you are good and your mercy endureth forever' as taken from scripture. So, if you will only accept that forever means never ending than how do you reconcile His unending mercy with unending torment ? You can't. But if you try to give this argument that God is giving people what they want by giving them endless torment, then I can't reason with such nonsense.

Annihilationist believe that some may be scared away from the gospel so they take the fear out of it

Yes, that is exactly why they believe what they believe. It is all about a seeker friendly gospel. You surely don't believe some of these slams you are making ? That is like me saying that the 'T' view believers are sticking to the 'T' view so they can scare the hell out of people and get them saved. Would that be a fair statement ?

To B. W.-

The manner in which to determine if doctrine is true is to compare it with the Lord's character and attributes in the bible.

Agreed !! And this is one of the main arguments of those with an 'A' view. You couldn't have supported this position any better.

Does one's doctrine cause God to cancel out any of his attributes?

If so, no matter how flattering it is - it needs tossed out...

Agreed again. That is why the concept of never ending torment is something to toss out.

I really don't have the time and this thread is not the place to argue with you about the character of God. However, it is quite key to how one interpret's various scriptures. The way you see God's character is not the way many of us view His character. I doubt that any of us can fully know God but perhaps you think you can through this 'much wrestling' thing you speak about.

Some of us disagree with you and that God does take away life. As Job says 'He gives and He takes away'. The second death will be the final taking away.

We agree that God does not deny Himself also but not in the way you think He must act. God, in no way, denies Himself by justly punishing anyone for the adequate judgment they deserve. Not the judgment you determine they deserve from your interpretation of certain scriptures and your views on immortal beings, etc.

And regarding being at peace. Once one is destroyed, peace is not an issue. If I no longer exist, I have no sense of peace or otherwise.

What really is difficult to comprehend is this

Both have to be made with eternity in their hearts with both given equal opportunity to decide where each wants to spend that eternality

That reasoning just destroys me. There is nothing that suggests that all men are immortal and this interpretation of 'eternity in their hearts' does not say that man is an immortal being and therefore must chose heaven or hell. God alone is immortal but He gives immortality to believers only at the resurrection.

You actually believe that anyone would knowlingly chose never ending torment ? You need to get out more and talk to people. If God made it perfectly clear to anyone that they had a choice of never ending torment or eternal life with God, you think the majority that ever lived on this earth would pick the torment ? How weird that reasoning is. But I suppose you must think this way if you are going to consider God to be fair according to your interpretations of scripture.

You have not answered any of these questions, nor have you begun to... Why???

Well, for one thing, most of these problems you are having with the 'A' view have answers that can be found in many 'A' view sites and I don't think they all need repeating here. Secondly, some of your reasonings and use of scriptures is so off the wall according to my understandings that I just don't care to go in circles with you on it.

I will agree with you again on this statementyou made -

For doctrine to be correct it must do so by not violating any principles, truths, etc declared about God found in the bible....

Another great supporting statement for the 'A' view.

Sorry, but I'm just trying to get you to see that the 'A' view is not a view just based on feelings but it is also based on a certain interpretation of scriptures and an understanding of who God is. And I'm sure you will forgive me once again, right ?

[J.Davis]

J.Davis wrote: if God wanted to do what the bible say’s he will do, and that is have never ending torment for the unsaved. Than I am ok with that because I trust his ways. It does not matter to me…people misinterpret the bible all the time.

Sudsy wrote: And you have arrived at a point to know the exact truth on this matter with your interpretation of scripture. I guess you must be a candidate to be a future world leader of religion. I didn't realize you were infallible. J. Davis, it is one thing to express your views on scripture with much conviction but when you declare that your interpretation is the absolute truth you are indicating a very elite attitude about what you think you know about the Bible.

Oh Sudsy...Taking my words out of context...You Annihilationist you...LOL..

You said..

You claim that some 'A' view folk are implying Jesus is evil if He is saying what the 'T' view people understand Him to say. Is it not true that some 'T' view folk are implying that God is not true to Himself if He acts out the 'A' view ? So one is calling God evil while the other is calling God a liar.

Then I said...

No, you misunderstood…If God wanted to do as Annihilationist say than I am 100% fine with that. If God wanted to do what the bible say’s he will do, and that is have never ending torment for the unsaved. Than I am ok with that because I trust his ways. It does not matter to me…people misinterpret the bible all the time. But It is right to love God for what we perceive as both the good or bad.

“If God wanted to do what the bible say’s he will do, and that is have never ending torment for the unsaved.Than I am ok with that because I trust his ways. It does not matter to me…people misinterpret the bible all the time.”

I obviously said it because you believe something different from me and I wanted to make my view clear.. And the over all point was that I would accept whatever could be proven as truth...Annihilationist view or mine.

Taking things out of context does not change the truth my friend...

[Sudsy]

J. Davis, sorry if I mis-understood and that is good that you are willing to be convinced through scripture that your view may need to change. I feel likewise.

Although I push back on you guys regarding the traditional view and do get concerned when you seem to almost make it a requirement for salvation, I am not totally convinced on any view of hell I've heard. My belief is that there is much about the judgment(s) and the accompanying sentences that we do not and cannot understand. I take exception to those who appear to come across as if they have it all figured out on subjects like creation, punishment, eternal security, etc, etc.

We could probably avoid a lot of 'snide remarks' ( I heard that somewhere ) if we presented our views as something to consider rather than 'this is truth and here is why everyone else is wrong'. Sometimes it seems to just get into a battle using a barrage of scriptures whether relevant or not and put downs of another view. We, including myself of course, are not too respectful of others and unwilling to admit that we do see many things through a glass darkly. Many a scholar has 'wrestled' (another word I'm borrowing) with understandings of scripture and come up with a view on a certain subject that seems the most accurate to them. Nothing wrong with conviction on interpretations but understanding that these interpretations are not necessarily infallible truths.

When we challenge certain views that seem to be locked into creeds then there obviously is great resistance as there is when many traditions are challenged. But in history it has been a good thing to challenge certain traditions when it can be challenged by scripture. The reformation is an example of this when traditions were not lining up with scripture. Personally, I have another minority area that I challenge and that is formal church membership that involves things like church covenants, etc. If we go to the scriptures as our guide then there certainly are traditional practises that we can continue to question.

One more observation. In my experience, those I believe who really have close relationship with God and their understanding of Him are very humble people. Much like the apostle Paul. The more they know about God the more they seem to realize how little they really understand about Him. I believe these type of believers have a growing realization of just how 'other' that God is from ourselves. There is no other like Him. They fall at His feet and see how sinful they are as did Isaiah.

I'm trusting that God is looking down on this thread and as a loving Father, probably smiling at His children in what they think they know about this subject. Much like an earthly father listening to a child philosophies on a subject that they have very limited knowledge about. I don't think He blames us for our ignorance as it has not been made completely clear in a way that we all agree. But He chose to not make it that clear for some reason. He may not approve of our fleshly ways of arguing with one another but I think He allows it to occur as a means of teaching us things in our learning process to become more like Christ. And this is how I'm viewing this from my current understandings of God. Perhaps others are viewingthis much differently, I don't know.

Anyway, this topic has been interesting for me and I see it keeps poping up here and there in some form or other with much of the same arguments and scriptures given. It always has and probably always will be a high area of curiousity and debate within Christianity.

[BavarianWheels]

Anyway, this topic has been interesting for me and I see it keeps poping up here and there in some form or other with much of the same arguments and scriptures given. It always has and probably always will be a high area of curiousity and debate within Christianity.

It's like a small breath of fresh air to realize that in a community of believers (G&S), there is at least one person that seems to have the same "crazy, scriptureless" finding/belief/leaning as I do.
.
.

[B. W.]

To B. W.

The manner in which to determine if doctrine is true is to compare it with the Lord's character and attributes in the bible.

Agreed !! And this is one of the main arguments of those with an 'A' view. You couldn't have supported this position any better.

Does one's doctrine cause God to cancel out any of his attributes?
If so, no matter how flattering it is - it needs tossed out...

Agreed again. That is why the concept of never ending torment is something to toss out.

Prove it - pit it against who God is… answer my questions

I really don't have the time and this thread is not the place to argue with you about the character of God. However, it is quite key to how one interprets various scriptures. The way you see God's character is not the way many of us view His character. I doubt that any of us can fully know God but perhaps you think you can through this 'much wrestling' thing you speak about.

Prove it - pit it against who God is…

Some of us disagree with you and that God does take away life. As Job says 'He gives and He takes away'. The second death will be the final taking away.

Prove it - pit it against who God is. Read my post below

We agree that God does not deny Himself also but not in the way you think He must act. God, in no way, denies Himself by justly punishing anyone for the adequate judgment they deserve. Not the judgment you determine they deserve from your interpretation of certain scriptures and your views on immortal beings, etc.

Prove it - pit it against who God is...

And regarding being at peace. Once one is destroyed, peace is not an issue. If I no longer exist, I have no sense of peace or otherwise.

Prove it - pit it against who God is… Peace is cessation of hostility, rest from all harshness, torments, trials, etc – have no sense of peace or otherwise – is absolutely cessation of hostility, rest from all harshness, torments, trials, etc… it is cessation is it not???

What really is difficult to comprehend is this

Both have to be made with eternity in their hearts with both given equal opportunity to decide where each wants to spend that eternality

That reasoning just destroys me. There is nothing that suggests that all men are immortal and this interpretation of 'eternity in their hearts' does not say that man is an immortal being and therefore must chose heaven or hell. God alone is immortal but He gives immortality to believers only at the resurrection.

You believe in soul sleep - thought you stated earlier you did not - pit your doctrine against who God is…

You actually believe that anyone would knowingly chose never ending torment ? You need to get out more and talk to people. If God made it perfectly clear to anyone that they had a choice of never ending torment or eternal life with God, you think the majority that ever lived on this earth would pick the torment ? How weird that reasoning is. But I suppose you must think this way if you are going to consider God to be fair according to your interpretations of scripture.

You actually believe that anyone would knowingly chose non-existence ? You need to get out more and talk to people. If God made it perfectly clear to anyone that they had a choice of never ending non-existence or eternal life with God, you think the majority that ever lived on this earth would pick the never ending non-existence? How weird that reasoning is. But I suppose you must think this way if you are going to consider God to be fair according to your interpretations of scripture.

You have not answered any of these questions, nor have you begun to... Why???

Well, for one thing, most of these problems you are having with the 'A' view have answers that can be found in many 'A' view sites and I don't think they all need repeating here. Secondly, some of your reasoning’s and use of scriptures is so off the wall according to my understandings that I just don't care to go in circles with you on it.

'A' view have answers that can be found in many 'A' view sites - what about pitting these against who God is - revealed plainly honestly fromthe bible - very few words needed...

I will agree with you again on this statement you made -

For doctrine to be correct it must do so by not violating any principles, truths, etc declared about God found in the bible....

Another great supporting statement for the 'A' view.
Sorry, but I'm just trying to get you to see that the 'A' view is not a view just based on feelings but it is also based on a certain interpretation of scriptures and an understanding of who God is. And I'm sure you will forgive me once again, right ?

Dispense with the rabbit trials – pit your doctrine against who God is… Therefore - Let's test it...

The Lord slays and makes alive Deuteronomy 32:39

Life is take away in a moment – 1 Samuel 2:6

If this means non-existence of being then this goes against God’s very nature, though God could do it, he does not. Faced with this in Genesis 6 God did not perform what Job 34:14 and Job 34:15 states – why?

He remains true to himself and that is a good - the ultimate Good! Is the ultimate good God Himself or not?

So what happens if the Lord slays? What does that mean? How can He not violate the eternity in the Heart of humanity – his gift of life, promises, etc and etc…

Again the principle spoken about God in 2 Samuel 14:14 answers this:

"For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him..."

Notice three parts are reveled. Yes, we die because mortal flesh dies; however, the spiritual part continues on as Job 34:20, 21, 22, 23 points out in verses 20 and 23. Verse 20 speaks of God slaying someone and verse 23 answers why – to bring them into judgment. This lines up with Hebrews 9:27 and the context of Ecclesiastes 3:14, 17, 19, 21 (Ecc 3:14-22) and Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Yes, God slays to bring a person to him for Judgment. The Persons mortal body returns to the dust, the body dies; however the spiritual being of that person – the real them continues on: thus, God does not take away life.

In Genesis chapter 2, which came first -The Body or the Spirit? Did the Body have life in itself before the breath of life? What God does endures forever...

Mystery – Resurrection of the body when it is rejoined with the spiritual being: God keeps his word, his promises made in Genesis…despite sin – He still does so in a manner not perceived or by the will of man or Satan. Test, tried, refined, promise and word kept - Dominion rightly exercised or bannished away forever crushed by what one has sown -eternally...

The means which God devised in order to restore a banished one is explained in Romans 5:9, 10 Through Christ Jesus. If one rejects this – him God rejects…and that one is banished forever away from God. No violation to God’s character whatsoever. We live to God or to ourselves.

Samuel 2:14 t says Banished one – not non-existing ones. Why? - yes we die, but God does not take away life…

This Lines up with what God does endures forever and placing eternity in the heart as well as being a God of the Living in the fullest sense of the word. If this was not so – then explain how Satan managed to rebel in treason without being zapped into non-being by leading one third of the angels in rebellious treason against God?

FACT: God does not take away life i.e. spirit returns to God for Judgment – Hebrews 9:27

Again, Sudsy, Annihilationism cannot answer any question I posed without relying on human opinion as the sole source to determine convenient truth… you self said this - see above comments for details...

You can find truth in God and who he is (Character, Attributes, Nature) and pit these against doctrine. Try it with the reason the Messiah came and the purpose of his coming…

Annihilationist cite: For God's eternal wrath and punishment to be eternal - never ending - would be unjust, serving no purpose - by whose /what standards do you base this on?

You have not answered any of these questions nor begun to reconcile annihilationist doctrine to what God reveals about himself within the bible…

For doctrine to be correct it must do so by not violating any principles, truths, etc declared about God found in the bible....

You have not answered any of these questions, nor have you begun to... Why???

Question: Does or does not Annihilationism doctrine cause God to deny himself, deny any of his promises, deny how he made us, when it states that God will annihilate into non-being?

Question: Would annihilating into non-being cause God to deny himself as the living God, cause him to lie, deny how he fashioned humanity with 'what' in our hearts – the eternal image of God?

Question: How can God be truly impartial by sending one off into oblivion of non-being and another not, and remain true to his word, gifts (givings) and promises?

Question: Is human opinion the sole measure for truth or measuring truth by the God of Truth?

Psalms 68:20, 21, “Our God is the God of salvation; and to GOD the Lord belong escapes from death. 21 But God will wound the head of His enemies, the hairy scalp of the one who still goes on in his trespasses.” NKJV

This passage has deeper meaning than mere annihilationism into non-existence: To God belongs the escapes (issues) of death. God will wound – shatter the head of his enemies, those that continue own in their trespasses…

Of course you can interpret this any way you like too but in doing so, you will never find or ever arrive at the truth…

Question: Does or does not Annihilationism doctrine cause God to deny himself, deny any of his promises, deny how he made us, when it states that God will annihilate into non-being?

What do these scriptures tell us it?

Ecclesiastes 3:18, "I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals"

Psalms 7:9, "Oh, let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; For the righteous God tests the hearts and minds."

1 Thessalonians 2:4, “But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.”

How is your heart being tested?

Where does the glory shine? That’s just your interpretation or God’s Character established, verified, proclaimed within His own Book?

How is your heart being tested?

Answer the questions Sudsy...

Dispense with the rabbit trials – pit your doctrine against who God is…
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[Sudsy]

B.W. there is no sense in trying to prove anything to someone like you who regardless of the arguments offered are determined to believe what they choose to believe.

You say 'pit it against who God is' and I tried to explain to you that who God is, is an interpretation that we make regarding who God is from many, many scriptures not just the selected ones that you keep posting over and over again.

You actually believe that anyone would knowingly chose non-existence ?

If it was that or endless torment, of course they would.

You believe in soul sleep - thought you stated earlier you did not

Hmmm, I must have been asleep when I posted that. Perhaps you can find the exact text I used, or not. I'm not a Seventh Day Adventist.

OK, I'll reply to your latest questions but you won't like my answers -

Question: Does or does not Annihilationism doctrine cause God to deny himself, deny any of his promises, deny how he made us, when it states that God will annihilate into non-being?

Answer - No.

Question: Would annihilating into non-being cause God to deny himself as the living God, cause him to lie, deny how he fashioned humanity with 'what' in our hearts – the eternal image of God?

Answer - No.

Question: How can God be truly impartial by sending one off into oblivion of non-being and another not, and remain true to his word, gifts (givings) and promises?

Answer - Nothing is impossible with God as scripture says.

Question: Is human opinion the sole measure for truth or measuring truth by the God of Truth?

Answer - No.

There, hows that ? I'm sure you don't agree but they are my answers and if you want further explanations do some research on what some Annihilationists really believe.

MY Questions - Why do you clutter up this forum with your long winded sermons that are full of repeated text ? And now your adding colour. Is this to try to give more weight to your arguments ? Perhaps you are on a mission to win over followers to your view ? Why can't you just accept that there are differing views on the subject and this isn't a competition on who has the longest and/or most arguments ?

[J.Davis]

J. Davis, sorry if I mis-understood and that is good that you are willing to be convinced through scripture that your view may need to change. I feel likewise.

Ok, I said nothing about me feeling that my view may need to be changed. I accept my view 100% and believe that it is the truth, you are free to feel the same concerning your view. Now, you have taken my words out of context several times already and minced B.W‘s word‘s as well, even your last post to him takes his words out of context. But despite these heinous acts…Thou art forgiven Sudsy, now go…and mince no more..

In any case, as far as the rest of your post, no deal. God requires that we speak what we know to be the truth and defend that truth.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

1 Timothy 4:16 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Galatians 1:6-10 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

I‘ll leave you with B.W‘s questions for now... God is serious about false doctrine.. Annihilationist my think there tweaks are minor but they could cause significant character alterations that would otherwise not happen if one believed in the traditional view.

Still…gathering info..

[Sudsy]

I said - J. Davis, sorry if I mis-understood and that is good that you are willing to be convinced through scripture that your view may need to change. I feel likewise.

I said this based on reading this that you said - 'And the over all point was that I would accept whatever could be proven as truth...Annihilationist view or mine.'

You responded - 'Ok, I said nothing about me feeling that my view may need to be changed.'

But I didn't say you felt your view needed to be changed. I said 'that is good that you are willing to be convinced through scripture that your view may need to change'. Is this not what you indicated above ?

Now you say I made a 'heinous act' by concluding this is what you were indicating. Unbelievable. But I accept your apology given or not.

So you are defender of truth. Truth according to J. Davis interpretation of scripture. And you give this verse to support this in Galatians 1:6-10 which is speaking of another gospel, so I take it that you believe anyone who does not agree with the 'T' view is preaching another gospel. Perhaps you need to start a thread on the true Gospel and see who agrees with you. I, for one, would say you have added to and therefore distorted the true Gospel.

Some of the 'A' view preach strongly about escaping a terrible Hell where one will be punished justly for their sins. They just believe in a God that is inifinitely merciful and will destroy all traces of sin, hell, satan and death and heaven will not be a place to peer down upon all our unsaved loved ones in endless torment. You can choose to assemble some theology to support your view of God and heaven if you wish but others of us will consider other possibilities that are more reflective of the God we understand as portrayed in the scriptures.

For any unsaved reading this thread - I believe hell is real and you wouldn't ever want to go there. The extent of the punishment you will receive is not anything you want to play around with. The good news is that God made a way for you to escape it. Accept His free offer of salvation today. He died for your sins because of His great love for you. He is willing that none should perish. Will you accept Him or reject Him and face the consequences ? The choice is yours to make. I wish I could make it for you, but I can't and no one else can.

[J.Davis]

But despite these heinous acts…Thou art forgiven Sudsy, now go…and mince no more..

Now you say I made a 'heinous act' by concluding this is what you were indicating. Unbelievable. But I accept your apology given or not.

It was a joke Sudsy…see the razz face? Which you conveniently removed ..lol

[Sudsy]

It was a joke Sudsy…see the razz face? Which you conveniently removed ..lol

Sorry, I missed both the joke and the razz face. I take it the 'conveniently removed' was another razz. I'll try to lighten up.

[B. W.]

B.W. there is no sense in trying to prove anything to someone like you who regardless of the arguments offered are determined to believe what they choose to believe.
You say 'pit it against who God is' and I tried to explain to you that who God is, is an interpretation that we make regarding who God is from many, many scriptures not just the selected ones that you keep posting over and over again.

Glad to see you admit it is annihilationist interpretation who God is – it is not from the bible, is it? Because it indeed makes God deny himself, show partiality, tells God what to do and how to act…

You actually believe that anyone would knowingly chose non-existence ?

If it was that or endless torment, of course they would.

Your right, many successful suicides thought it best to take the jump, Serial killers too would grab at the chance too (I worked in criminal Justice field – interview a few who love annihilationism use it to justify their crimes…)

It does not matter if you teach either on endless self torment (that is what it is - self torments) or annihilationism’s escapism. People will chose the broad that way leads to perdition more than the narrow way back to God. You argument holds no water. People remain enemies of God, haters of God, deniers of God despite any warnings and such even will even make a mockery out of God’s love as well due their sin nature and ability to distort and twist the truth about themselves.

OK, I'll reply to your latest questions but you won't like my answers -

Question: Does or does not Annihilationism doctrine cause God to deny himself, deny any of his promises, deny how he made us, when it states that God will annihilate into non-being?

Answer - No.

No proves nothing - Prove it by scripture please

Question: Would annihilating into non-being cause God to deny himself as the living God, cause him to lie, deny how he fashioned humanity with 'what' in our hearts – the eternal image of God?

Answer - No.

No proves nothing - Prove it by scripture please

Question: How can God be truly impartial by sending one off into oblivion of non-being and another not, and remain true to his word, gifts (givings) and promises?

Answer - Nothing is impossible with God as scripture says.

What do these scriptures reveal: Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:17, 18 - Romans 11:29, James 1:17?

Answer: It is impossible for God to lie, deny himself, his gifts, callings, promises, there is no variation or shadow of turning. This tells us God indeed imposes upon himself his own self restraint because that too is not impossible for God to do.

God is impeccable in all he does; therefore, the scripture you cite, Luke 1:37 means something else rather than what you think it means. It is in reference to a child being born, just as before in Genesis 18:14. In reference to speech notice Numbers 11:23 and to salvation in Matthew 19:25-26.

Once God declares a matter – he will accomplish what He intends. It is impossible to thwart God, or out smart him. Once God promises a matter, he is faithful to accomplish it, changes not, has no variation or shadow of turning, he keeps his word, and his promises, callings. To do otherwise would cause him to deny himself which is impossible for him to do...

We have his word on this – it is impossible for him to lie or deny himself or deny his unchangeableness of purpose. In the verse you cite – God declares his unchangeableness of purpose to see what he promised through –it is impossible for him to fail: that is what it means by nothing is impossible with God – he cannot fail in his word, promises, plans, intent, will, gifts, callings...

Question: Is human opinion the sole measure for truth or measuring truth by the God of Truth?

Answer - No. There, hows that ? I'm sure you don't agree but they are my answers and if you want further explanations do some research on what some Annihilationist really believe.

Why do you cite another website and bog people down reading opinions of people who insert wrong word meanings into their writings that cause God to act contrary to himself?

I have read their writings on what they believe. Just because they believe it does not make it truth. Truth in these matters comes from comparing God’s written record about himself as the measure of truth, not human sentimentality.

“But the word of the LORD was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught,” Isa 28:13 -NKJV

How snared? Caught challenging the Lord to deny himself, go against his word, promises, tempt him…Caught leading others astray by misapplying the scripture too suite the measure of truth of themselves over God’s truth about himself…

MY Questions - Why do you clutter up this forum with your long winded sermons that are full of repeated text ? And now your adding colour. Is this to try to give more weight to your arguments ? Perhaps you are on a mission to win over followers to your view ? Why can't you just accept that there are differing views on the subject and this isn't a competition on who has the longest and/or most arguments ?

Simple - “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little." Isaiah 28:10.

These are no long winded sermons. They are concise and to the point. Not much verbiage. Teachers use rote to help students learn…

For great examples at who is truly long winded, read the ACUTE dribble, read Arians like William Whiston, or modern leaders like William Fudge, Clark Pennock, John Stot, David Powery’s gigantic writings who follow after Whiston’s ideas. All have God deny himself within pages upon pages of their massive works.

It is not the large numbers of words one uses that determines truth on such matters – it is this – does it stack up to the truth about God himself? These works do not. Compared to here – to what I write on this small thread – no – not massive at all. As for the color, this is for you to read my current responses to your post in the most economical space possible.

I stick with the truth about God, not as I like to interpret it (which you falsely accuse me of doing), but rather by what it teaches me about who God is. God does not lie, He remains true to his own written record about himself, faithful is God to his promises, because it is impossible for God to lie and deny himself. Annihilationism, on the other hand, is built on human sentimentality and in their massive works indeed cause God to deny his very name and nature...

What do my short writing teach you about God’s character, nature, ways, promises, gifts, callings…? It may take much more repeating rote, after all, narrow is the way – broad is the way to perdition.

Not what you want to hear – is it???

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