Evidence for God from Science

I'm not sure you would, but thanks Rick. When I was a pastor and worked in institutional churches, I didn't understand this very well, and as a pastor, I preached what I know now, was a bait and switch gospel. I'd' preach grace on the front end and then as people came to Christ, I'd meet them on the other side and help them to see how they now needed to do important things for God (and my church ...) like tithe, like serving, like bringing other people into church and the list could go on.

None of those things are necessarily bad in and of themselves. I preached "grace" but then I practiced "but." I couldn't trust to the grace of God in my own life or in the life of others. I had to "hedge things" so that people would do the right things and work to build the kingdom and the message changed from week to week depending upon what the ministry needed. People coming to Christ, then it was grace all the way. Tithes, volunteers, then grace would take on other things and the thing is that grace is grace and as soon as you add a "but" to it, it is no longer grace no matter how hard you try to torture logic to try and make it so.

It's more than semantics. It's really about what's at the core of our lives and walk with God. When we're resting in grace then we're dependent upon God and the irony is that we're then free to live in response to that grace and out of a healthy, vibrant walk then out of that rest and security come a desire and willingness to do the right things and it doesn't require fear, guilt or shame to motivate them (although they can be powerful short term motivators.) The problem with adding things to grace is that over time they begin to wear out in their effectiveness and then I have to up the ante or I have to come up with something else to make people want to do the things that I needed them to do.

It's a dance that's gone on for ages and still does. Human religion at its root, doesn't really understand or comprehend the grace of God as Christ came to procure it for us. We want to believe it really is too good to be true. Deep down, there's a part of us that want to believe we can manipulate and move God and that there's really something about us that God needs and we can bargain with him and exercise some form of control over Him. Grace lets go of all of that and enters into a realm of Love and response from that love that allows us to walk in a manner that is so much better.

cypher wrote:Do you believe that being homosexual is wrong?
People are born heterosexual or homosexual. This is a big problem for people, and demonizes religion for an atheist. Most people i know will laugh at the idea of religion because of the lack of caring they show for homosexuality.
shouldn't Christians disregard the passages that deny homosexuals a right to love? Just like they disregard the passage that does not allow shellfish?

I think you are correct that people are born both Gay and Straight. I know many people who are born in both categories and even Bi. The Bible says it is sin so it is hard to reconcile. I love all people including my Gay friends who God made that way.

It's more than semantics. It's really about what's at the core of our lives and walk with God. When we're resting in grace then we're dependent upon God and the irony is that we're then free to live in response to that grace and out of a healthy, vibrant walk then out of that rest and security come a desire and willingness to do the right things and it doesn't require fear, guilt or shame to motivate them (although they can be powerful short term motivators.) The problem with adding things to grace is that over time they begin to wear out in their effectiveness and then I have to up the ante or I have to come up with something else to make people want to do the things that I needed them to do.

Very beautifully put, Bart. Made me a think a lot about what I believe. Thank you and God bless you.

You're welcome Neo. Glad it was helpful and thought provoking. I appreciate you too.

I'm not sure you would, but thanks Rick. When I was a pastor and worked in institutional churches, I didn't understand this very well, and as a pastor, I preached what I know now, was a bait and switch gospel.

Sorry, Bart. I completely misread what you wrote before. I thought you had a sermon preaching against the 'bait and switch gospel'.

Salvation is by grace and grace alone. That's the foundation of any relationship with God through Christ.

Bart, I didn't really realize how true this is until the "secured salvation" thread we have here. Participating in that thread, got me into a deeper thinking about the difference between living as one accepted by God(the Holy Spirit's perseverance in a believer), and one living to try to gain God's approval(We ourselves must persevere).

Even then, however, Jesus made it clear that it wasn't enough to do works for their own sake. We have to find the source of them in the right motives which are to center on two things, the love of God and the love of others.

And how the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is Who enables us to do those works. Works not of ourselves.

I find, usually, the people who focus the most upon works and who seems the most emotionally invested in making sure that this whole "grace thing doesn't go too far" are responding to what Paul refered to as the scandal or the offense of the Gospel. People who think they are more righteous or have worked harder than others, want to be sure that other people know it and that they're going to get what is fair and coming to them in the end. That whole attitude is what in the end appears to a great degree to determine whether their works in the end are going to be wood, hay and stubble or gold, silver and precious jewels. The same type of works are going to be in each pile. It's our heart attitude, motivation and love for others that makes the difference, and the irony is, the people who worry the least about trying to earn things for God and who are just doing things from the love that their grace relationship gives way too, are the ones whose works are of the most value to God and the least to themselves.

I have to give you a double amen, on that!!

The child of God under grace has been delivered from the burden of works. He is not striving to be accepted in Christ(Ephesians 1:6). The child of God is not now called upon to live by the energy of his own flesh. He lives in the power of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

For the Christian it is not about works to be saved it is works after salvation works of love not sucking up to God to get to heaven.

Bart,

We would both agree that a grace walk is the only true fruit producing walk. Yet, there is a lack of fruit. This isn't a new problem. Obviously the NT is full of rebuke and correction, challenges of examination, etc. We are to spur one another on towards love and good deeds. I find in some cases the opposite of what you speak. A church that is so hypergraced, that no one is walking in what is prepared for them. And a church that is afraid to admonish because it might hurt attendance. I've spoken to many pastors who are genuine, sincere, and want their congregations to experience all that God has for them, but it is obvious they are not. And these pastors are grieved. How do we balance both sides?

Love is certainly connected to salvation... you will not even have faith if you don't love... you have faith because you love not the other way around. You don't have love because you have faith... if anything they coincide. It all boils down to love... if you LOVE ME!!!

...God loves us (love for humanity, so much so send His SON, to die, to give salvation to those whom LOVE Him)
...We love GOD (Christians, who LOVE Him, believe have faith, and do work, not our work anyways but the work of Christ in us, and we don't work to get saved, we work because we are saved)!!!

Matt 6:15, 18:35,

you cannot even have forgiveness if you don't love... otherwise you'd never forgive anyone. Forgiveness is a byproduct of LOVE again, not the other way around.

Greatest commandement is to LOVE... I think thats self explained and is very important.

jlay wrote:Bart,

We would both agree that a grace walk is the only true fruit producing walk. Yet, there is a lack of fruit. This isn't a new problem. Obviously the NT is full of rebuke and correction, challenges of examination, etc. We are to spur one another on towards love and good deeds. I find in some cases the opposite of what you speak. A church that is so hypergraced, that no one is walking in what is prepared for them. And a church that is afraid to admonish because it might hurt attendance. I've spoken to many pastors who are genuine, sincere, and want their congregations to experience all that God has for them, but it is obvious they are not. And these pastors are grieved. How do we balance both sides?

Hey Jlay, Since I don't believe the position of pastor is Biblical nor do I believe that much of what passes for church today really is anything like what the church is, I'm probably not the best one to answer this question.

I've found as I've begun to become involved more in organic type church that the natual flow of what you speak of takes place as a natural expression of body life. When relationships matter and there is depth and a wilingness to drop the mask then many of the things like rebuke and admonition take place in a context of love. America's consumer driven institutional church sows the seeds of it's own ineffectiveness when it seeks to attract followers from other congregations by offering better facilities, better programs, a more entertaining worship service etc .... People who come for these reasons will leave just as easily when something better is offered elsewhere or when they're offended or hurt.

I've come to the conclusion that the typical American church does about 70 - 80% of it's efforts and activities in directions and areas that are presented as Biblical (which they really aren't) and that the model as a whole is broken. Rather than fixing it, I think a grass-roots evaluation is in order and if it leads to conclusions that look nothing like they typical american church today, then so be it.

That's my opinion. I accept others think differently and either believe the current model is worth saving or they don't see anything wrong with that is happening today. The statistics however are sobering. About 1,500 full-time christian works leaving ministry every month in the US and about 1 million leaving overall attendance every year (statistics are from George Barna and can be googled easily.)

Hey Bart,

While part of a traditional church, I am also part of an organic group like you mention. I am also in service with a para-church mission based outreach. I will agree that I experience more biblical reality in the latter two.

Do you think the role of pastor, as we know it today is in conflict with the Bible? Anything that you have read that you would find helpful too me in better understanding your position?

No matter how hard you look in the NT you won't find anything or anyone that looks like a pastor in today's modern church. I do believe there is freedom so no, I don't think that it is "wrong" in the sense of sinful. I've personally though come to the conclusion that in the longrun it weakens the church by creating a professonal clergy and leaving the "laity" passive and uninvolved,

Bart, we just went through a pastor search in our congregation. I like the new Pastor, but after the process I am starting to see exactly what you are talking about. We went almost 10 months without, and I really saw no negative aspects. We did not get an interim, and we had plenty of people capable of preparing and delivering a sermon. The regular work of the church went on as usual.

Personally, I am very active in our congregation. I don't see a senior pastor as affecting my roles at all. Could it be that certain people would be passive and uninvolved anyway? I have found that people can remain obscure in a traditional church.

Anway, I don't disagree. In fact I want to do more research. If you have any articles, or anything, please let me know. Here is one I stumbled on.

http://str.typepad.com/weblog/2009/08/t ... model.html

Canuckster1127 wrote:No matter how hard you look in the NT you won't find anything or anyone that looks like a pastor in today's modern church. I do believe there is freedom so no, I don't think that it is "wrong" in the sense of sinful. I've personally though come to the conclusion that in the longrun it weakens the church by creating a professonal clergy and leaving the "laity" passive and uninvolved,

Hi Bart, I know you had a thread on this a couple of years ago, and as I recall you were on the button regarding institutionalised Christianity. Please could you in a sum define an organic church, not by what it isn’t, but by what it is, exactly.

Your not born GAY... Your born IN(to) sin not OF sin... thats like saying your born a murderer, an adulterer, an alcoholic, a rapist. Quit justifying, start purifying... if your born those ways then you wouldn't be able to change... that be dumb... ex: I'm a man... I cannot change that... even if you come back with you can have a sex change, the fact remains I was born a dude, guy, man, male... and the fact is no matter what my appearance or physical alterations cant change that.

Although I agree with you that people are not born gay, zacchaeus, your point isn't very convincing. You say that if someone was born this way, they wouldn't be able to change, but then you say one can have an operation to change one's sex. You go on to say that this didn't really change them. Applying this thought to sexuality, if someone were to turn from homosexuality, they didn't really change, that it's impossible for one to change.