Evidence for God from Science

Oh, I don't doubt that some gays allow their sin to define them. Do we really suppose that the "gay gene" may be closely linked to the "effete lisp gene?"

Good one. Ravi addresses this issue well. Is sexual orientation sacred? Race is sacred. You are born that way and there is no denying or changing it. To say this is the same for sexuality requires a tremendous burden of proof if you ask me. As Pro said, there are those that allow their sexuality to complete consume them and identify them. That doesn't mean it is innate.


Awesome comments Protector.

Seraph wrote:So what ought a homosexual do? Marry someone of the opposite sex that they are not remotely attracted to and keep away from who they are attracted to (emotionally and spiritually as well as sexually) all because it better aligns with the cute "symbolism" behind marriage? That tends not to work out very well.

I'm all for pleasing God, but I can't picture the Biblical God being delighted in demanding that people lead ficticious and loveless lives.

Well, if you love your aunt, God still condemns that. Homosexuality is viewed as perverse in the NT and described as such by Paul along with adultery, etc. Now what verse was that ?

Murray wrote:^



After reading my post does the concept of hard core gays seem more plausible though? What I meant by this is that I have never seen a gay who goes to gay pride parades, commits sodomy of floats in public, guys all sorts of disgusting sex toys, and then turns Christian. I have however seen gays that are kind of on the down publicity side, which have a quite gay life with their partner until one day they try to change their sexual orientation and in some cases, as in the exodus program, they succeed.

I recognize and understand what you are describing, but I'm not entirely sure I know what you are implying. Do you mean to suggest that some homosexuals are born that way (or otherwise hard-wired that way) whereas others are not? It's plausible, but really nothing more that speculation. I can understand the temptation to see some of the bizarre antics some people engage in at some gay pride parades, contrast them with the behavior of average Joe homosexual you know from school or work, and concluded that the former must be born gay while the latter may have the potential to change, but again that's entirely speculative, and one could just as easily make the argument that the reverse is true: that the "hard core" gays are really just rebelling against something (Society, God, authority, Mommy and daddy, you name it), and the "soft core" gays are born that way and just want to live out their alternative lifestyles in peace. I dont know of any evidence for any of this, and really I don't think it matters. Regardless of whether such a distinction can be made, it does not affect how we as Christians understand homosexuality.

jlay wrote:

Oh, I don't doubt that some gays allow their sin to define them. Do we really suppose that the "gay gene" may be closely linked to the "effete lisp gene?"

Good one. Ravi addresses this issue well. Is sexual orientation sacred? Race is sacred. You are born that way and there is no denying or changing it. To say this is the same for sexuality requires a tremendous burden of proof if you ask me. As Pro said, there are those that allow their sexuality to complete consume them and identify them. That doesn't mean it is innate.


Awesome comments Protector.

Ah yes, I have heard Ravi say that one before. I love that man. There may be stronger apologists out there, but Ravi just has a way of speaking directly to the soul that you never get from a WLC.

Thank you for your kind words, jlay, Marcus and danieltwotwenty.

The Protector wrote:

Murray wrote:^



After reading my post does the concept of hard core gays seem more plausible though? What I meant by this is that I have never seen a gay who goes to gay pride parades, commits sodomy of floats in public, guys all sorts of disgusting sex toys, and then turns Christian. I have however seen gays that are kind of on the down publicity side, which have a quite gay life with their partner until one day they try to change their sexual orientation and in some cases, as in the exodus program, they succeed.

I recognize and understand what you are describing, but I'm not entirely sure I know what you are implying. Do you mean to suggest that some homosexuals are born that way (or otherwise hard-wired that way) whereas others are not? quote]


Not at all my friend. I believe that homosexuals CHOOSE to act like this, and others CHOOSE to live a quite life. The ones who march in the gay pride parades, the ones who commit sodomy on floats in parades in public, the ones who wear make-up, those are the ones who offend me. It is one thing to sin, it is a whole nother thing to have massive pride parades for sin. Do you see adultery pride parades? Do you see thief pride parades? The reason you do not is most people in their hearts believe what they do is wrong, however,(lets say radical) homosexuals feel the need to scream yell and engage in union with others committing the same sin so it in a sense blocks out that feeling of wrong.

Gay churches on the other hand, take the less offensive route of trying to convince them selves through studying the bible, and that is how they can live without doing these awful things in public. How often do you see gay churches screaming and yelling and committing sodomy in public? Almost never. Why? They don’t need to, because they are convinced fully through their faith. Is it the wrong interpretation? Perhaps, but they feel no need to plow their views into faces of others that may find it offensive.

If a gay were to go to heaven, It would be a gay from a gay church, just as if an athiest were to go to heaven, it would probably be through and athiest christian organization.

another quick question, if god hated homosexuality so much, why did jesus choose not to speak about it?

Murray wrote:another quick question, if god hated homosexuality so much, why did jesus choose not to speak about it?

I don't think it was a very big problem at the time, at least in the sense that it was considered a sexual sin by His audience already. Really, Jesus didn't speak about any specific problems very much, because He didn't have much to say on the subject.

Murray wrote:another quick question, if god hated homosexuality so much, why did jesus choose not to speak about it?

Because Jesus came for those who are in need of him.

another quick question, if god hated homosexuality so much, why did jesus choose not to speak about it?

Why did Jesus choose not to speak about a number of things. We have to ask, what is the purpose for Jesus' earthly ministry? Jesus earthly ministry was to the Jews regarding the Kingdom of God. Homosexuality is clearly condemned amongst the Hebrew people. I don't see homosexuality as being a particular issue with Israel at that time or in the context of Christ preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Many "extreme" Christians say that god hates homosexuality above many other sins, so i suppose that is where my question of if god truly did hate it and wanted all to know how much he hated it, why would Jesus not speak about it.

And why do Christians protest homosexuality so much, It is literally mentioned 1 time in the new testament (correct me if I’m wrong), why do we not protest liars, thieves. and divorcees as much as them? I mean divorce is mentioned many times in the new testament but yet their are no extreme christrian churches who dominantly protest divorce

Murray wrote:Many "extreme" Christians say that god hates homosexuality above many other sins, so i suppose that is where my question of if god truly did hate it and waned all to know how much he hated it, why would Jesus not speak about it.

And why do Christians protest homosexuality so much, It is literally mentioned 1 time in the new testament (correct me if I’m wrong), why do we not protest liars, thieves. and divorcees as much as them? I mean divorce is mentioned many times in the new testament but yet their are no extreme christrian churches who dominantly protest divorce

I agree. Homosexuality is a sin, but it is no worse than other sins. The bad thing is it is being viewed as something acceptable and rather than being a single sin, it is a whole lifestyle, i.e. done repeatedly. To throw people out of church though because they are homosexual is uncalled for. Perhaps we should throw everyone else who has sinned out too?
Hmm... Church would be rather... empty.

Murray wrote:If homosexuality is a choice this would mean god is just.

If it is not a choice god applys to strict calvanist principles and is unjust.

But what I do not understand is how it can be a choice when people kill themselves over being gay, I mean if they want to be straight could they no just choose to be? Honestly, I could not stand being called such nasty words such as a acrnom for gay, I would immediatly want to become straight......

Heres the link to the gay churches view on why being gay is okay.
http://www.gaychurch.org/gay_and_christ ... an_yes.htm

Well I don't think that if it's part of their nature people are automatically justified in doing it, especially considering what is said about it in the BIble, that's kind of like saying a compulsive murderer who is addicted to killing is justified in ending someone's life just because that's his nature, it makes no sense really. It's not "a choice OR inherent nature," even if it IS inherent in some humans to be that way - which I haven't seen much evidence for - then there's still a choice to keep it back for the sake of following the Bible's teachings. The Bible says that "God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able to resist, but with the temptation will make the path of escape." So even if people have that inherently inside of them it makes no sense to say they should be given freedom to do whatever they want with it.

Honestly, I believe nobody is born gay, I think something happens in these peoples lives and the choose to handle it incorrectly, like maybe being bullied by a girl when they were 5 of something and thus chose never to get over it.

If you talk to a lot of gays you will find they actually did have a traumatic experience with something, and that, did probably in some way lead to their homosexuality.

And why do Christians protest homosexuality so much, It is literally mentioned 1 time in the new testament (correct me if I’m wrong), why do we not protest liars, thieves. and divorcees as much as them? I mean divorce is mentioned many times in the new testament but yet their are no extreme christrian churches who dominantly protest divorce

I think the 'why' is an easy answer.
If there was a group that had pro-adulterer marches, and wanted to pass legislation that gave special recognition and protection to adulterers, do you think Christians would object, and even protest?

The outcry is a reaction, and yet somehow this obvious reality is often missed. How much of an outcry do you think there would be if there was no effort to legislate the teaching of homosexuality as an accepted and normal lifestyle, and that homosexuals can marry and be afforded the same recognition as traditional couples? Very little.

If you keep your lifestyle private, how many times will your neighbors object?
Now, start planting large signs stating your opinions at the border of your neighbors property and see how long it takes to get a reaction.

great point there jlay, very well put