Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote: I said that MUSLIMS believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God and that they worship the God of Abraham.
I did NOT say that I believe that Allah and Our Father are the same God.
Lets not forget that Allah has more in common with the Hebrew God as revealed to them BEFORE Christ.

That seems like a far cry from what you where saying earlier.. It was almost like you were defending them there a bit after I told you that they do NOT worship the same G-d. But yes that is correct, everyone already knows that Muslims "think" that they worship the same G-d as the Jews and Christians. We know they absolutely do not.

RickD wrote:

PaulS wrote:
While it is quite possible that the fallen ones did and do pass themselves off as "angels of light" and even "gods", I don't know how it is possible to convince any believer of that.

Don't you mean, convince any unbeliever?

No, I meant to convince a believer of an interpretation of a deity, that this deity could be in fact a "fallen one" or the messenger of that interpretation could be a fallen one.

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: I said that MUSLIMS believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God and that they worship the God of Abraham.
I did NOT say that I believe that Allah and Our Father are the same God.
Lets not forget that Allah has more in common with the Hebrew God as revealed to them BEFORE Christ.

That seems like a far cry from what you where saying earlier.. It was almost like you were defending them there a bit after I told you that they do NOT worship the same G-d. But yes that is correct, everyone already knows that Muslims "think" that they worship the same G-d as the Jews and Christians. We know they absolutely do not.

I was defending their view that they believe they are worshiping the God of Abraham.

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulS wrote:
While it is quite possible that the fallen ones did and do pass themselves off as "angels of light" and even "gods", I don't know how it is possible to convince any believer of that.

Don't you mean, convince any unbeliever?

No, I meant to convince a believer of an interpretation of a deity, that this deity could be in fact a "fallen one" or the messenger of that interpretation could be a fallen one.

Ok,I understand now, sorry.

The Christian God is the same as the Islamic God

1stjohn0666 wrote:The Christian God is the same as the Islamic God

Thanks for your insight, 1stjohn. You've brought a new, and truly enlightening insight to this discussion. These are the kinds of detailed answers that can get people to really think in a deeper way.

Murray wrote this on another thread and I thought I post it here for this topic to make a point:

Murray wrote:I would just like to bring to your attention the genocide of christians beginning in islamic africa and the middle east. With arab spring the muslim brotherhood is starting to dominate politics and as you can see from egypt, the result is not good. Church burnings, mass killings, shooting to protesters of the burnt churches; Its crazy! Nigeria is one of the worst christians getting slaughtered on a daily basis. Recently kenya and ethiopia invaded part of somolia because of the constant attack's br somalian warlords on christian villages.

Prayers for all oppressed christians in these area's are needed. They are being martyred by the thousands and god knows when it will stop. Christianity is being attacked violently and it needs our prayers.

Here is the Point:

Mark 3:24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." NASB

Not the same God...
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Same God, ask any Islamic faith person

1stjohn0666 wrote:Same God, ask any Islamic faith person

Are you a Muslim or a JW? or just a confused 666 er?

Islamic god is not the same God Christians believe in - SO DO WE CHRISTIANS HAVE ANY SAY ON THIS MATTER or is your mind closed minded on this?
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1stjohn0666 wrote:Same God, ask any Islamic faith person

If you ask someone of the Baha'i faith, they'd say that every religion has the same G-d, just as someone of the Hindu faith would say all gods are just manifestations of Brahman, or an atheist would say all gods are either created by lies or delusions. Yet, the OP asked the people of this board (at least for the most part not Muslims) about a position with reasons to back it up.

To add to the discussion, I believe there have been many good arguments on both sides. I agree that, seeing as there is only One G-d for people to have, that in one sense Muslims have the same G-d as Christians in the same sense as all people, regardless of faith or the lack of faith, have the same G-d. But, then again, as someone who reads the Qur'an, there is certainly a different description compared to the G-d described in the Scriptures of Judaism and Christianity.
I suppose maybe the best way I could explain my position currently is that the G-d that Muslims WORSHIP is the same G-d, while their understanding of G-d is inaccurate. But the G-d described in their Scripture is not the same G-d described in the Scriptures of the G-d of Israel. This isn't to say that I believe that their worship means that they're saved, as it's not just about an innacurate understanding of G-d, but of their rejection of Who the Messiah truly is and said He was, and His sacrifice on the cross. I simply mean that I believe that Muslims as living people who are usually sincere, normal people and not murderers do understand that there is One G-d, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and they honestly believe they're serving Him.
I've seen people talking about whether modern-day Jews and Christians have the same G-d. What do you guys think of this: If a trinitarian understanding of G-d, along with the details we now know of the Messiah that were portrayed only as a shadow beforehand, are necessary to truly be a servant of the One True G-d and to be saved, then did the believers before Jesus came have the same G-d even if they didn't understand/know these things?

I take the (possibly controversial) opinion that Allah is Satan, and Muhammad was possessed by him. Compare Jesus and Muhammad. Jesus preached forgiveness, kindness, and love of one's brother. Muhammad preached the exact opposite; he was a brutal warlord who beheaded his enemies and had a child wife. But perhaps the strongest evidence of this is the Quran's use of the word "deceiver" to describe Allah. I could go on and on all day about this topic, but those are a few of the particularly salient points.

To me, it's pretty clear what's going on here. Christianity and Islam are like day and night.

I believe your views on Muhammad might be a little skewed, as was the case for many years until western historians actually put in the effort to compile a more accurate description of his life.

Also, the Koran does indeed call Allah the greatest deceiver/schemer in existence (because he is the God of everything), though it should be pointed out that the one who says that Allah is a deceiver is actually Satan himself, right before Satan chooses to rebel against Allah. Allah did not deceive humans or anything like that in the Koran, but rather Satan believes and accuses Allah of deceiving him. There is no other accusation of deception except by Satan.

On the other hand, the God of the Bible is known to deceive humans. Thessalonians 2:9 states that Satan will lure people into unbelief, and that "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." sounds like God actively deluded the victims of Satan. God also deceived an army fighting the Israelites, causing them to kill each other because of the lie that God planted among them, and in another case he "blinded" the eyes of an army so that they wouldn't realize the truth of where they were going and leading them to their death. So, just because the Bible does not explicitly call God a deceiver does not mean he isn't, and the Koran only calls Allah a deceiver when the accusation comes from Satan.

You are probably thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11. You're taking it out of context; Scripture says that at this point, the followers of Satan would have already perished due to their dislike for the truth. God is merely giving them up to Satan's system once they're too far gone to be saved.

It is untrue that Satan is the only thing to call Allah a deceiver. Allah was described as a deceiver several times in the Quran. Often he described himself as such. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver

Indeed. Did you actually read these quotes though? In each case, it is a reference to how deceivers such as Satan or human vessels of Satan attempt to deceive the masses, but that Allah has the power to thwart them because no one is good enough to deceive over Allah's word. Again, these are not negative connotations. It isn't referencing Allah deceiving people, it is referencing others who try to deceive but cannot deceive above Allah.

Also, in reference to Thessalonians, it seems odd that God is just "giving them up" by actively sending "delusions of truth" to them...Deception is deception, one way or another, and God seems to be basically re-enforcing Satan's will in this passage.

Also, wikiislam is an absolute garbage website for "truth". It isn't unbiased like a factual website should be and it is basically an anti-Muslim website pretending to a good source of information. Even a Christian friend of mine said that the site was clearly only around for explicit bashing of Islam and has referenced hate websites in the past to validate their "analysis," and hence the website is on a blacklist for academic references of any kind.