Evidence for God from Science

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RickD wrote:

The only thing I deny in all of your claim is the last line. You make an outlandish claim against me that I don't believe Jesus is Messiah/savior.

John, you believe a false jesus is messiah/savior. A false jesus who is a created being is not able to save us from our sins. Only God can save us. Not to mention that by your worshiping a created jesus, you're worshiping someone who is created, not the Creator. That's idolatry.
Look at the verses B. W. Posted. They're talking about Jesus who is God. Not the false jesus you believe in, who has no power to save.
Is Jesus Christ God?
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The Trinity

1, I believe the Jesus of the bible who is Messiah/savior. 2, Why can't a created "son of God" save? 3, I agree "Only God can save" John 3:16 Jesus is savior by the means that his Father who is "the only true God" John 17:3 The Father gave the sheep to his son, the son must gather them, and after 1,000 years of reigning with Christ, Christ returns the sheep to the Father "so that God can be all in all" 1 Cor 15:24-28. 4, As for who I worship... it is as Jesus taught Matt 6:9 and so forth, I worship the Father "through" Jesus Christ as he also is the mediator between man and God 1 Tim 2:3-6. 5, I did look at the verses and I see no allusion whatsoever that "Jesus is God" nor a "false Jesus" 6, You are making the claim that Jesus has no power, and I disagree. ("The Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ" this is in our bibles) was given power and authority Matt 28:18.
The Christ you understand vs. the Christ I understand are the very "same" son of God. Rick with all respect, you just give the title "God" to the Christ that we both revere.
Now I see that you gave me two links on this site both of which I have read. Are you wanting to go over something with me that maybe you think might enlighten my ideas on who the son of God is? I might be able to follow along and learn a thing or two.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

RickD wrote:

The only thing I deny in all of your claim is the last line. You make an outlandish claim against me that I don't believe Jesus is Messiah/savior.

John, you believe a false jesus is messiah/savior. A false jesus who is a created being is not able to save us from our sins. Only God can save us. Not to mention that by your worshiping a created jesus, you're worshiping someone who is created, not the Creator. That's idolatry.
Look at the verses B. W. Posted. They're talking about Jesus who is God. Not the false jesus you believe in, who has no power to save.
Is Jesus Christ God?
And
The Trinity

1, I believe the Jesus of the bible who is Messiah/savior. 2, Why can't a created "son of God" save? 3, I agree "Only God can save" John 3:16 Jesus is savior by the means that his Father who is "the only true God" John 17:3 The Father gave the sheep to his son, the son must gather them, and after 1,000 years of reigning with Christ, Christ returns the sheep to the Father "so that God can be all in all" 1 Cor 15:24-28. 4, As for who I worship... it is as Jesus taught Matt 6:9 and so forth, I worship the Father "through" Jesus Christ as he also is the mediator between man and God 1 Tim 2:3-6. 5, I did look at the verses and I see no allusion whatsoever that "Jesus is God" nor a "false Jesus" 6, You are making the claim that Jesus has no power, and I disagree. ("The Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ" this is in our bibles) was given power and authority Matt 28:18.
The Christ you understand vs. the Christ I understand are the very "same" son of God. Rick with all respect, you just give the title "God" to the Christ that we both revere.
Now I see that you gave me two links on this site both of which I have read. Are you wanting to go over something with me that maybe you think might enlighten my ideas on who the son of God is? I might be able to follow along and learn a thing or two.

I really wish you would answer my question more directly, I went back and could not see where you claim you had answered it. Why was Jesus able to save when Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses couldn't? If all that was required is a created man then why Jesus, why not them? Why all the charades for thousands of years?

1stjohn0666 wrote:

RickD wrote:

The only thing I deny in all of your claim is the last line. You make an outlandish claim against me that I don't believe Jesus is Messiah/savior.

John, you believe a false jesus is messiah/savior. A false jesus who is a created being is not able to save us from our sins. Only God can save us. Not to mention that by your worshiping a created jesus, you're worshiping someone who is created, not the Creator. That's idolatry.
Look at the verses B. W. Posted. They're talking about Jesus who is God. Not the false jesus you believe in, who has no power to save.
Is Jesus Christ God?
And
The Trinity

1, I believe the Jesus of the bible who is Messiah/savior. 2, Why can't a created "son of God" save? 3, I agree "Only God can save" John 3:16 Jesus is savior by the means that his Father who is "the only true God" John 17:3 The Father gave the sheep to his son, the son must gather them, and after 1,000 years of reigning with Christ, Christ returns the sheep to the Father "so that God can be all in all" 1 Cor 15:24-28. 4, As for who I worship... it is as Jesus taught Matt 6:9 and so forth, I worship the Father "through" Jesus Christ as he also is the mediator between man and God 1 Tim 2:3-6. 5, I did look at the verses and I see no allusion whatsoever that "Jesus is God" nor a "false Jesus" 6, You are making the claim that Jesus has no power, and I disagree. ("The Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ" this is in our bibles) was given power and authority Matt 28:18.
The Christ you understand vs. the Christ I understand are the very "same" son of God. Rick with all respect, you just give the title "God" to the Christ that we both revere.
Now I see that you gave me two links on this site both of which I have read. Are you wanting to go over something with me that maybe you think might enlighten my ideas on who the son of God is? I might be able to follow along and learn a thing or two.

Isaiah 43:10, 11 answers better than long explainations

Isaiah 45:21, 22, 23 too...

John 1:1-14
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@Byblos:
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses are NOT the "son of God" who would be the Messiah as prophesied in all of the OT. I see you read my post and again the answer to your question is once again there.

1stjohn0666 wrote:@Byblos:
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses are NOT the "son of God" who would be the Messiah as prophesied in all of the OT. I see you read my post and again the answer to your question is once again there.

Yes, I did read that but that doesn't really answer the question. First I see you put quotes around the "son of God", why? Do you not consider Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses or you and me as "sons of God"? Does the fact that Jesus had no human father make him the promised messiah prophesied in scripture? And most importantly, my question is why, why did God need to "create" a special human with no earthly father to be the promised messiah? Was God bound by the prophesies? Obviously I don't believe you believe that so Jesus was in fact God's plan of redemption from before creation. So again I ask you why the charade over thousands of years and countless ineffective prophets who couldn't save? Why not "create" Jesus from the get-go and be done with it?

John, does it matter if Jesus is God, or just a created being? Maybe this will help you understand:
Must We Believe Jesus is God?

Byblos wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:@Byblos:

Yes, I did read that but that doesn't really answer the question. First I see you put quotes around the "son of God", why? Do you not consider Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses or you and me as "sons of God"? Does the fact that Jesus had no human father make him the promised messiah prophesied in scripture? And most importantly, my question is why, why did God need to "create" a special human with no earthly father to be the promised messiah? Was God bound by the prophesies? Obviously I don't believe you believe that so Jesus was in fact God's plan of redemption from before creation. So again I ask you why the charade over thousands of years and countless ineffective prophets who couldn't save? Why not "create" Jesus from the get-go and be done with it?

I put quotes around son of God to denote that Christ is Gods literal son. We are Gods children, but not in the same way as Christ. your question "was God bound by the prophecies" YES .. God is the one who gave them. Why didn't God just kill the human race at the fall of Adam and Eve and be done with it from the get go? Well God does have grace and mercy. His timing and ways are not ours. God created Jesus in the womb of Mary as he said he would and did. God put his words in the promised Messiahs mouth as he said he would and did. I agree that Jesus was Gods plan of redemption from before creation. I do not see a charade over thousands of years. I simply see that God did and does as he says and when.

RickD wrote:John, does it matter if Jesus is God, or just a created being? Maybe this will help you understand:
Must We Believe Jesus is God?

The article said this and I strongly disagree "So I think that it's actually very critical and I think it's important to point out that Paul himself talked about ANOTHER JESUS that was preached that some unfortunately accept, but a Jesus that is contrary to the Jesus of Scriptures. In fact, Jesus warned in Matthew 24 that one characteristic of the end times is the fact that false messiahs would come and claim to be someone special and mislead many." Paul by definition was Christian and believed the same Jesus as I do. I guess I cannot be a "Creedal Christian" I can simply be a "biblical Christian" If I had to put my beliefs and practices in two hands 1, the Creeds 2, the scriptures. It would be very easy for me to dismiss the the Creeds. 2 Tim 3:16 Is a fine verse that explains the "where" my beliefs and practices come from. By the article dismissing the works of Paul would insist to dismiss most of the New Testament, I would dismiss the article.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

RickD wrote:John, does it matter if Jesus is God, or just a created being? Maybe this will help you understand:
Must We Believe Jesus is God?

The article said this and I strongly disagree "So I think that it's actually very critical and I think it's important to point out that Paul himself talked about ANOTHER JESUS that was preached that some unfortunately accept, but a Jesus that is contrary to the Jesus of Scriptures. In fact, Jesus warned in Matthew 24 that one characteristic of the end times is the fact that false messiahs would come and claim to be someone special and mislead many." Paul by definition was Christian and believed the same Jesus as I do. I guess I cannot be a "Creedal Christian" I can simply be a "biblical Christian" If I had to put my beliefs and practices in two hands 1, the Creeds 2, the scriptures. It would be very easy for me to dismiss the the Creeds. 2 Tim 3:16 Is a fine verse that explains the "where" my beliefs and practices come from. By the article dismissing the works of Paul would insist to dismiss most of the New Testament, I would dismiss the article.

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Isaiah 43:10, 11 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45:21, 22, 23 Declare what is to be, present it-- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

John 1:1-4, 14, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind…. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Again – if Jesus were merely a created being – it would be blaspheme to worship such (for example - Exodus 20:3, 4, 5 and Revelation 5:12, 13, 14

Your point of view teaches such blaspheme and yet you say -- All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 2Ti 3:16 - explains the "where" your beliefs and practices come from yet what Paul wrote in Titus 2:13 disproves your interpretations as backed up by the OT...

What do you think the verses cited above are saying?

How do the square with your point of view...

Bible quotes from NIV and NASB
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Titus 2:13 says "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" NOT "the glorious appearing of the great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" It is "the glory of the great God (The Father)" I clearly see the harmony of Titus 2:13 with the words of Christ in Matt 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father" And also is in harmony with the OT in Proverbs 17:6 "Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers." As for Jesus being "merely a created being" Jesus was a divinely created mortal man in the womb of Mary. As for the worship of God, I worship God as instructed by Christ Matt 6:9 "Our Father who art in heaven" NOT "Our Father who is standing right here" Jesus is the mediator between man and God. I worship "through" Christ. Titus 1:4 "Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." I don't think Paul was an idiot to go and contradict himself in the same epistle.

1stjohn0666 wrote:

Byblos wrote:

1stjohn0666 wrote:@Byblos:

Yes, I did read that but that doesn't really answer the question. First I see you put quotes around the "son of God", why? Do you not consider Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses or you and me as "sons of God"? Does the fact that Jesus had no human father make him the promised messiah prophesied in scripture? And most importantly, my question is why, why did God need to "create" a special human with no earthly father to be the promised messiah? Was God bound by the prophesies? Obviously I don't believe you believe that so Jesus was in fact God's plan of redemption from before creation. So again I ask you why the charade over thousands of years and countless ineffective prophets who couldn't save? Why not "create" Jesus from the get-go and be done with it?

I put quotes around son of God to denote that Christ is Gods literal son. We are Gods children, but not in the same way as Christ. your question "was God bound by the prophecies" YES .. God is the one who gave them. Why didn't God just kill the human race at the fall of Adam and Eve and be done with it from the get go? Well God does have grace and mercy. His timing and ways are not ours. God created Jesus in the womb of Mary as he said he would and did. God put his words in the promised Messiahs mouth as he said he would and did. I agree that Jesus was Gods plan of redemption from before creation. I do not see a charade over thousands of years. I simply see that God did and does as he says and when.

All well and understood. The question is why. Why did God choose to send human prophets who were only effective in temporarily saving Israel (that kept falling over and over again), to later send his only begotten son to save the rest of humanity (once and for all)? Why did God decide before creation that a human is incapable of saving humanity but a half human half god is? You can answer as you repeatedly have by simply saying well God chose to do it this way, or His timing and ways and are not the same as ours, which doesn't really answer the question I've been asking all along but this may satisfy you, which is fine. It is after all a rhetorical question, meant to provoke thought, nothing more.

1stjohn0666 wrote:Titus 2:13 says "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" NOT "the glorious appearing of the great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" It is "the glory of the great God (The Father)" I clearly see the harmony of Titus 2:13 with the words of Christ in Matt 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father" And also is in harmony with the OT in Proverbs 17:6 "Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers." As for Jesus being "merely a created being" Jesus was a divinely created mortal man in the womb of Mary. As for the worship of God, I worship God as instructed by Christ Matt 6:9 "Our Father who art in heaven" NOT "Our Father who is standing right here" Jesus is the mediator between man and God. I worship "through" Christ. Titus 1:4 "Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." I don't think Paul was an idiot to go and contradict himself in the same epistle.

For someone who claims to be in college working on a grad degree - you demonstrate a disdian for the plain English text as well as the Greek which did not use comma's

Titus 2:13 would read in the Greek: "…the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

Sorry to inform you 666 - you missed the boat on that one and Paul did write Titus 2:13 too...

Again – if Jesus were merely a created being – it would be blaspheme to worship such being as Exodus 20:3, 4, 5 clearly states. Yet, in Revelation 5:12, 13, 14 Jesus is worshiped in Heaven. You cannot explain that can you?

Rev 22:13, 13, 14, 15, 16, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." NIV

Listen to what Jesus spoke in these verse way before Revelation’s book was written:

Isa 41:4 "Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He. NASB

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me NASB

Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. NASB

Do you understand who paid your ransom price john666? Have any idea what that means?
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@B.W.:
I posted exactly what you did when translating the Greek of Titus 2:13 minus the comma. You probably stand on one side of the "Sharp's Rule" where I stand on the other. If I were to use Sharp's Rule with Titus 2:13 then Sharp's rule fails in Titus 1:4, thus making Sharp's rule fictitious IMHO. Paul did not contradict himself in the same epistle.
We will probably never agree on this one verse.
I know who paid the ransom for all the sins of the world. John 3:16

I know who paid the ransom for all the sins of the world. John 3:16

Let's look at John 3:16:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


If the only begotten Son is not God as you claim, then John 3:16 is telling us to believe in someone other than God Himself for salvation. How do you explain that, John? If Jesus is not God, then God is telling us to worship the creation, not the creator. That would be a contradiction with Romans 1:25:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for [a]a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.