Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

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Audie
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Re: Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

Post by Audie »

PaulSacramento wrote:
On what basis do you make the statement about science learning it seems guided?
An opinion only.

Here is the thing, science exists because people (scientists) can observe and document the world around us and they can even repeat and predict many things ( most thing some would argue) in nature.
Good so far.

Now, if nature was purely random and unpredictable
Which of course it is nor purely random. Some things are predictable and orderly other things are random and unpredictable. Things may be predictable on one level, random on another.

, that wouldn't be the case.
Science seems to "take for granted" that they can predict, they can observe and that there is an "order" to nature.
Well, no, that is a matter of empirical observation, not an assumption.

Also, in science there is no certainty. Just probabilities.

Even evolution, if we look at it with no bias ( or as little as possible), seems to leads us to a process that "selects" which mutations to pass on to the next generation, which mutations are deemed beneficial.
Well, allowing for the anthropomorphic nature of "select" and "deem", that is more or less right. I sure wouldnt have said it that way.

I mean, if there is a "selection process" ( which evolutionists say there is), that seems to imply some sort of "guidance".
Well, guidance is another word with human connotations.

Would you say that water is guided downhill, and that it selects what it deems to be the best path? Probably not. And if not, dont say it of evolution either.

Or if you don't like the word guided you can choose another
Its not about what I like, its about what is appropriate. I dont think any synonym for "guided" would be any better.

What word would you use when talking about water going downhill?
PaulSacramento
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Re: Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

Post by PaulSacramento »

Why does water go downhill instead of Uphill? why does water go anywhere at all? why does water have the properties for "going" ?
And that really isn't what we are talking about at all anyways, so I am not sure why you brought that up...
Audie
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Re: Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

Post by Audie »

PaulSacramento wrote:Why does water go downhill instead of Uphill? why does water go anywhere at all? why does water have the properties for "going" ?
And that really isn't what we are talking about at all anyways, so I am not sure why you brought that up...
We are talking about how natural forces operate, I thought.

Not why they exist.

You seem to think evolution needs guidance, Im saying it no more needs it than water does. There is no general principle, nor any specific evidence whatever that any guidance is involved, at all.

You see guidance taking evolution somewhere. But you dont see special guidance needed to organize random raindrops into a river system and take it to the sea.

Why would you think that the one only needs the basic forces of gravity etc, and the other needs special forces?
PaulSacramento
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Re: Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

Post by PaulSacramento »

You seem to think evolution needs guidance, Im saying it no more needs it than water does. There is no general principle, nor any specific evidence whatever that any guidance is involved, at all.
I don't think that evolution needs guidance at all.
I just pointed out that Natural selection seems to be a type of "guidance" as to what mutations are passed on.
Audie
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Re: Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

Post by Audie »

PaulSacramento wrote:
You seem to think evolution needs guidance, Im saying it no more needs it than water does. There is no general principle, nor any specific evidence whatever that any guidance is involved, at all.
I don't think that evolution needs guidance at all.
I just pointed out that Natural selection seems to be a type of "guidance" as to what mutations are passed on.
Ok, good enough. As long as its 'guidance" in quotation marks. :D
abelcainsbrother
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Re: Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Is it important really to be able to talk science on its terms in order to reach the lost?Which is one of the few things that bothers me about ID. Because I can find no evidence that shows in science natural selection effects life.Like Eskimo's who are humans who adapted to live in the extreme cold and yet natural selection is nonexistent and they are still humans.We can use bacteria and it shows that natural selection is imagination that the evidence does not bear out natural selection having any effect on life.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Mazzy
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Re: Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

Post by Mazzy »

PaulSacramento wrote:
You seem to think evolution needs guidance, Im saying it no more needs it than water does. There is no general principle, nor any specific evidence whatever that any guidance is involved, at all.
I don't think that evolution needs guidance at all.
I just pointed out that Natural selection seems to be a type of "guidance" as to what mutations are passed on.
There are many theories offered as to why natural selection has resulted in only one species being able to make sense of the world has survived. That's a shame really. The beginners guide to evolutionary theory could make a strong case around how mankind is not 'special' in any way if other species particularly from a distant line such as aves or reptiles were heading towards exploring the universe.
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Mazzy
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Re: Beginners guide to evolutionary theory

Post by Mazzy »

Audie wrote:I wonder what exactly is meant by / is the basis for saying "proteins deteriorate.."
and, as for the completed complex host, what information about a bright line distinction between living and non living is entered into this.
FYI. Even in a living host proteins deteriorate. It is commonly called 'aging'.

http://www.salk.edu/labs/hunter/research.php


The latest flavor of the month around abiogensis is the "proteins first" theory. This theory suggests one of the first steps towards a living life form was a protein evolving via some unknown chemical reactions. Proteins do not form on their own outside of a host, a host being, from a living organism from one of the 3 domains of life. ie a life form.

Take a sample that contains protein from a living host and it 'dies'. The notion of a protein, no matter how short, forming on its own via chemical reactions and surviving long enough to undergo some other evolutionary process appears to be disproved by the science of observation and all research conducted so far.
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