Evidence for God from Science

Daniel wrote:
You know, I really don't think there is much difference between us, you believe in the infinite as do I, you are in wonder by it as am I, everything you have been saying has been talked about my theologians and philosophers for 1000's of years. The only difference I see is that you see a infinite void, impersonal and uncommunicative, where as I see a personal, loving, relational, creative being, who is interested in little old me in a very big way.

Hana, we need that "like" button now.

now is already gone. you need to wait till i have time for that.

1over137 wrote:now is already gone. you need to wait till i have time for that.

Postpone the wedding. We need the 'like' button NOW!

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Revolutionary wrote:I indulge in thought quite a bit, not to prove anything but to merely expand it..... To me, the second we stop wondering and pushing it further and further is the moment we've lost our expression... Repeating words that have already been said and living a life that has already been lived, with only slight variations.... To me, infinity is a brilliance that I can't deny.

I totally agree the infinite is amazing and I also spend many hours in thought, pondering what it must be like for the infinite.

We take from the earth, consume of it... We perform ridiculous acts to obtain shiny trinkets and 'conveniences' soon to become landfill.... We're like a virus, a cancer, and it manifests in our physical form as well.

I also agree with this, God wants us focused on building relationships and loving one another and not just acquiring stuff.

Every moment we spend should be composing the earth around us, every motion should be a well thought out work of art.... Money should be no object when it comes to the mind's ability to create. We don't need to chase ridiculous tokens around, we need to see our own beauty.

This also I can agree with, the Bible tells us all these things.

Imagine the inspiration available to the development of the mind if we began to set our own free to become such an expression..... Imagine entering a world where it was about expression and composition and you could spend lifetimes in your own 'backyard' and still not see all the nuances that had been created..... Imagine if you were told you could take anything that stirred your passion and become a part of it until you were ready to lead the way..... Imagine if you were told the passion you have stirred in others allows your expression to become grander than you could ever imagine because these young minds desire to learn from you and be a part of creating it.

This is what I imagine it will be like to be in total commune with God and the creation.

We could begin that motion and realization right here, right now; to learn how to become that visionary....

We certainly can and Jesus has told us how too.

But that's not what I wanted to discuss.... Imagine an infinite number of 'earths' when we leave this one here; available for every life to direct it's composition, to explore it's beauty and embellish upon it.... To get help and to help collaborate and explore other worlds as well.....

This is how I imagine heaven, an endless creation for us to explore with God as our guide.

That is how I would love, and if someone told me this was possible, you wouldn't be able to stop me from giving all of myself to see it through.

Jesus (God) has told us this is all possible and has shown us how too, unfortunately it is us that is standing in the way.

But who am I? I'd imagine it would be far more loving and brilliant than I could ever dream up.

You are like me, a special creation, made by a loving infinite spirit. The mind of God is definitely more than anything that I could ever imagine and I find joy that one day I will be able to explore that mind more fully.

You know, I really don't think there is much difference between us, you believe in the infinite as do I, you are in wonder by it as am I, everything you have been saying has been talked about my theologians and philosophers for 1000's of years. The only difference I see is that you see a infinite void, impersonal and uncommunicative, where as I see a personal, loving, relational, creative being, who is interested in little old me in a very big way.

Dan

Here is the distinction…..

The love and passion that I have for what I envision, finds it's foundation in a reality where it is impossible to discard or leave a single life behind….. Not one!


I also know unequivocally and without a single fiber of doubt (without serious implications); that such a reality, capable of fulfilling every life and mind to see it's unfathomable beauty and brilliance is nothing short of possible.

You say that you agree with all these things that I have said and that Jesus has told us that it is all possible and that he has shown us how…. This is simply not true, so apparently you have misunderstood what I am talking about.
The truth is that Jesus has never shown us without discarding or leaving a single life behind, how this is possible… Jesus 'shows' us something far, far from this; in fact it is quite the opposite!
Otherwise, Jesus would not be returning to redeem anyone until every life was fulfilled and redeemable, we are in fact shown and told ('commanded') to believe the complete opposite.

The problem in all of this is that I can prove without doubt, that it is possible to fulfill every life and mind within an aspect of simple logic, reason, sense and sensibility.

Achieving a fulfilled expression of humanity where no life is discarded or left behind is either possible or it's impossible…..

Do we dictate to God what is possible and impossible?
Why would Jesus/God take a position to accept such a dictation as a reactionary presence?

We have two choices, either it is without doubt and without question, possible to achieve an expression of humanity that doesn't discard or leave a single life behind; or God is dictating otherwise within his own unescapable will, and has created an arena where such a expression is without question an impossibility with the distinct purpose of discarding lives and leaving them behind.

If such an expression is possible, then that should be the unwavering focus in order to demonstrate it's truth..... If this is what we were shown and told ('commanded') to believe, this is what we would be striving for as an expression..... Sadly, we are not!

Revolutionary wrote:

Byblos wrote: But that would be scientifically wrong since a void is not only NOT nothing (a void can be measured, how exactly do you measure nothing), and more importantly a void is not infinite. If you want to assert that a void or time is infinite the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate how.

First, measure a void for me in order to differentiate it from nothingness.... Then we will continue

You will die someday and enter that void - that is a pretty good measure... for nothingness

Will all your self expressions of love and do - goodedness - for a better world have any value?

Measure is this - you and I will die one day - what then?
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Revolutionary wrote:Here is the distinction…..

The love and passion that I have for what I envision, finds it's foundation in a reality where it is impossible to discard or leave a single life behind….. Not one!

Ideally God would like the same, so really it is not a distinction as God doesn't leave anyone behind, they choose to stay behind. As I said earlier you see a void, I see God and God is a loving God hence why he made creatures that are capable of love, for love to be real is has to be a choice. People choose not to love God, they choose to stay behind, they choose the darkness, there is no discarding by God.

I also know unequivocally and without a single fiber of doubt (without serious implications); that such a reality, capable of fulfilling every life and mind to see it's unfathomable beauty and brilliance is nothing short of possible.

Here we can agree again.

You say that you agree with all these things that I have said and that Jesus has told us that it is all possible and that he has shown us how…. This is simply not true, so apparently you have misunderstood what I am talking about.
The truth is that Jesus has never shown us without discarding or leaving a single life behind, how this is possible… Jesus 'shows' us something far, far from this; in fact it is quite the opposite!
Otherwise, Jesus would not be returning to redeem anyone until every life was fulfilled and redeemable, we are in fact shown and told ('commanded') to believe the complete opposite.

Your interpretation of what Jesus said is a lot different to mine, please show what things he has said for you to draw this conclusion.

The problem in all of this is that I can prove without doubt, that it is possible to fulfill every life and mind within an aspect of simple logic, reason, sense and sensibility.

So far I have yet to see this proof, I am not trying to be offensive or anything, just honest.

Achieving a fulfilled expression of humanity where no life is discarded or left behind is either possible or it's impossible…..

With the choice to choose, people can choose to be left behind, this is your conundrum. What if I don't want to continue to exist, is your God (infinte void) going to force me?

Do we dictate to God what is possible and impossible?
Why would Jesus/God take a position to accept such a dictation as a reactionary presence?

We have two choices, either it is without doubt and without question, possible to achieve an expression of humanity that doesn't discard or leave a single life behind; or God is dictating otherwise within his own unescapable will, and has created an arena where such a expression is without question an impossibility with the distinct purpose of discarding lives and leaving them behind.

The only thing God has dictated is that we can love and we can choose to love, we can choose him (everything that is good, the light) or choose what is opposite to him (evil, the darkness).

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Revolutionary wrote:Here is the distinction…..

The love and passion that I have for what I envision, finds it's foundation in a reality where it is impossible to discard or leave a single life behind….. Not one!

Ideally God would like the same, so really it is not a distinction as God doesn't leave anyone behind, they choose to stay behind. As I said earlier you see a void, I see God and God is a loving God hence why he made creatures that are capable of love, for love to be real is has to be a choice. People choose not to love God, they choose to stay behind, they choose the darkness, there is no discarding by God.

I also know unequivocally and without a single fiber of doubt (without serious implications); that such a reality, capable of fulfilling every life and mind to see it's unfathomable beauty and brilliance is nothing short of possible.

Here we can agree again.

You say that you agree with all these things that I have said and that Jesus has told us that it is all possible and that he has shown us how…. This is simply not true, so apparently you have misunderstood what I am talking about.
The truth is that Jesus has never shown us without discarding or leaving a single life behind, how this is possible… Jesus 'shows' us something far, far from this; in fact it is quite the opposite!
Otherwise, Jesus would not be returning to redeem anyone until every life was fulfilled and redeemable, we are in fact shown and told ('commanded') to believe the complete opposite.

Your interpretation of what Jesus said is a lot different to mine, please show what things he has said for you to draw this conclusion.

The problem in all of this is that I can prove without doubt, that it is possible to fulfill every life and mind within an aspect of simple logic, reason, sense and sensibility.

So far I have yet to see this proof, I am not trying to be offensive or anything, just honest.

Achieving a fulfilled expression of humanity where no life is discarded or left behind is either possible or it's impossible…..

With the choice to choose, people can choose to be left behind, this is your conundrum. What if I don't want to continue to exist, is your God (infinte void) going to force me?

Do we dictate to God what is possible and impossible?
Why would Jesus/God take a position to accept such a dictation as a reactionary presence?

We have two choices, either it is without doubt and without question, possible to achieve an expression of humanity that doesn't discard or leave a single life behind; or God is dictating otherwise within his own unescapable will, and has created an arena where such a expression is without question an impossibility with the distinct purpose of discarding lives and leaving them behind.

The only thing God has dictated is that we can love and we can choose to love, we can choose him (everything that is good, the light) or choose what is opposite to him (evil, the darkness).

We can reason this easily with the interaction happening solely between the two of us.....
One of us is incorrect.... One of us lacks understanding.... The relevance of who that is, is unimportant to the immediate point.... Whoever it is didn't choose that lack of understanding, it is a condition of social influence/exposure or disposition as it pertains to intellectual prowess (although the line between the two is rather fuzzy).

Where it becomes relevant is that you are arguing instead that it is an aspect of choice.

If it is me that is lacking in understanding; I didn't choose it, nor can I escape it.... You can't simply choose to oppose a better understanding within your own mind, it doesn't matter who you are or what you are currently adhering too; to believe so demonstrates bare ignorance. The only solution to changing this reality is by identifying the social condition and/or disposition which has produced it, and understand how to appropriately nurture it in order to gain that understanding.

The simplistic concept and position of condemning a life by washing over what it embodies (right or wrong) by declaring that it is a result of choice.... well, it is a demonstration of a severe lack of knowledge.

It is your focus and belief that the individual chose not to be with God, so therefore they have chosen evil..... Do you then pat yourself on the back for your superior understanding (whoops sorry, choice) and that's where the focus stops?

You know, when a social construct continues to produce the same result over and over again.... Is the social construct the truth and everything existing outside of it has chosen to deny that truth, or is the social construct ineffective in demonstrating an expression capable of embodying every mind regardless of it's disposition?

I will continue by discussing what our (belonging to all of us) social construct produces as a reflection, and relate it to what I am discussing at a later time!
Struggling with time right now.

Revolutionary wrote: We can reason this easily with the interaction happening solely between the two of us.....
One of us is incorrect.... One of us lacks understanding.... The relevance of who that is, is unimportant to the immediate point.... Whoever it is didn't choose that lack of understanding, it is a condition of social influence/exposure or disposition as it pertains to intellectual prowess (although the line between the two is rather fuzzy).

Yes but knowledge of God is not something we have to learn, we all have an innate understanding of God but some of us choose to ignore that. Romans 1:20 Ecclesiastes 3:11

So this conversation is not a good analogy because I don't have innate knowledge of this conversation, but I do have innate knowledge of God.

Where it becomes relevant is that you are arguing instead that it is an aspect of choice.

If it is me that is lacking in understanding; I didn't choose it, nor can I escape it.... You can't simply choose to oppose a better understanding within your own mind, it doesn't matter who you are or what you are currently adhering too; to believe so demonstrates bare ignorance. The only solution to changing this reality is by identifying the social condition and/or disposition which has produced it, and understand how to appropriately nurture it in order to gain that understanding.

You do choose it, social condition and disposition have nothing to do with innate knowledge. Every culture in the world believes in the spiritual realm and for good reason, we have eternity inbuilt into us and our soul thirsts for God. Plus I also believe that God is more interested in your heart condition than what knowledge you may or may not have, he is merciful, patient, kind, loving and his grace knows no bounds. The Bible clearly says that we will be surprised at who is in the next life and who is not, which to me says that not only Christians will be saved and not all Christians will be saved because it is about what is on the inside of our hearts and not what we profess with our lips.

The simplistic concept and position of condemning a life by washing over what it embodies (right or wrong) by declaring that it is a result of choice.... well, it is a demonstration of a severe lack of knowledge.

There is a difference between innate knowledge and acquired knowledge, in this instance we are talking about innate knowledge so the point is moot.

It is your focus and belief that the individual chose not to be with God, so therefore they have chosen evil..... Do you then pat yourself on the back for your superior understanding (whoops sorry, choice) and that's where the focus stops?

Absolutely not, I accept God's grace knowing I am not worthy, I am humbled that he cares so much about me and my heart breaks for all those who cannot accept God.

You know, when a social construct continues to produce the same result over and over again.... Is the social construct the truth and everything existing outside of it has chosen to deny that truth, or is the social construct ineffective in demonstrating an expression capable of embodying every mind regardless of it's disposition?

You really need to speak in Layman's terms because most of this sentence I could not understand.

I will continue by discussing what our (belonging to all of us) social construct produces as a reflection, and relate it to what I am discussing at a later time!
Struggling with time right now.

Look forward to discussing with you further.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Yes but knowledge of God is not something we have to learn, we all have an innate understanding of God but some of us choose to ignore that. Romans 1:20 Ecclesiastes 3:11

So this conversation is not a good analogy because I don't have innate knowledge of this conversation, but I do have innate knowledge of God.

You do choose it, social condition and disposition have nothing to do with innate knowledge. Every culture in the world believes in the spiritual realm and for good reason, we have eternity inbuilt into us and our soul thirsts for God. Plus I also believe that God is more interested in your heart condition than what knowledge you may or may not have, he is merciful, patient, kind, loving and his grace knows no bounds. The Bible clearly says that we will be surprised at who is in the next life and who is not, which to me says that not only Christians will be saved and not all Christians will be saved because it is about what is on the inside of our hearts and not what we profess with our lips.

There is a difference between innate knowledge and acquired knowledge, in this instance we are talking about innate knowledge so the point is moot.

Absolutely not, I accept God's grace knowing I am not worthy, I am humbled that he cares so much about me and my heart breaks for all those who cannot accept God.

You really need to speak in Layman's terms because most of this sentence I could not understand.

Look forward to discussing with you further.

This is exactly my point!

You've argued a giant circle back to the beginning…. This is the type of focus/belief that ensures we will go nowhere as an expression of humanity.

Read again what I wrote paying attention to the bolded areas.....

Revolutionary wrote: I indulge in thought quite a bit, not to prove anything but to merely expand it..... To me, the second we stop wondering and pushing it further and further is the moment we've lost our expression... Repeating words that have already been said and living a life that has already been lived, with only slight variations.... To me, infinity is a brilliance that I can't deny.

We take from the earth, consume of it... We perform ridiculous acts to obtain shiny trinkets and 'conveniences' soon to become landfill.... We're like a virus, a cancer, and it manifests in our physical form as well.

Every moment we spend should be composing the earth around us, every motion should be a well thought out work of art.... Money should be no object when it comes to the mind's ability to create. We don't need to chase ridiculous tokens around, we need to see our own beauty.

Imagine the inspiration available to the development of the mind if we began to set our own free to become such an expression..... Imagine entering a world where it was about expression and composition and you could spend lifetimes in your own 'backyard' and still not see all the nuances that had been created..... Imagine if you were told you could take anything that stirred your passion and become a part of it until you were ready to lead the way..... Imagine if you were told the passion you have stirred in others allows your expression to become grander than you could ever imagine because these young minds desire to learn from you and be a part of creating it.

We could begin that motion and realization right here, right now; to learn how to become that visionary.... But that's not what I wanted to discuss.... Imagine an infinite number of 'earths' when we leave this one here; available for every life to direct it's composition, to explore it's beauty and embellish upon it.... To get help and to help collaborate and explore other worlds as well.....

That is how I would love, and if someone told me this was possible, you wouldn't be able to stop me from giving all of myself to see it through.

But who am I? I'd imagine it would be far more loving and brilliant than I could ever dream up.

Revolutionary wrote: Here is the distinction…..

The love and passion that I have for what I envision, finds it's foundation in a reality where it is impossible to discard or leave a single life behind….. Not one!

I also know unequivocally and without a single fiber of doubt (without serious implications); that such a reality, capable of fulfilling every life and mind to see it's unfathomable beauty and brilliance is nothing short of possible.

You say that you agree with all these things that I have said and that Jesus has told us that it is all possible and that he has shown us how…. This is simply not true, so apparently you have misunderstood what I am talking about.
The truth is that Jesus has never shown us without discarding or leaving a single life behind, how this is possible… Jesus 'shows' us something far, far from this; in fact it is quite the opposite!
Otherwise, Jesus would not be returning to redeem anyone until every life was fulfilled and redeemable, we are in fact shown and told ('commanded') to believe the complete opposite.

The problem in all of this is that I can prove without doubt, that it is possible to fulfill every life and mind within an aspect of simple logic, reason, sense and sensibility.

Achieving a fulfilled expression of humanity where no life is discarded or left behind is either possible or it's impossible…..

Do we dictate to God what is possible and impossible?
Why would Jesus/God take a position to accept such a dictation as a reactionary presence?

We have two choices, either it is without doubt and without question, possible to achieve an expression of humanity that doesn't discard or leave a single life behind; or God is dictating otherwise within his own unescapable will, and has created an arena where such a expression is without question an impossibility with the distinct purpose of discarding lives and leaving them behind.

If such an expression is possible, then that should be the unwavering focus in order to demonstrate it's truth..... If this is what we were shown and told ('commanded') to believe, this is what we would be striving for as an expression..... Sadly, we are not!

How does a perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being create something imperfect?

We are either innately perfect, marred by our own fear and doubt to see otherwise; or we are innately imperfect, created as a perpetual model of 'unescapable' sin.

Now, if we are innately perfect, how can we refuse or deny that the same perfection exists within every life and every mind?
How can we not envision within that innate perfection, how humanity would actually operate if it were realized by and for all; and begin striving to create that tangible model/arena in order to produce a perfect reflection that is capable of demonstrating and nurturing it as an embodiment?
How can we not understand within that innate perfection, going around convincing minds that they are all sinful and that the only escape is through a savior, that it is highly contrary to such an embodiment?
How can we discard a single life and a single mind when we have the knowledge that it is innately perfect and that there is a real and tangible solution to it's full realization?

Or are we innately imperfect, created within a point of containment (sin), chasing our tail around and around in a giant circle always back to the beginning, stepping over lives as they fall along the path? We are commanded to believe that we are all sinful and that the only path of escaping that sin is by accepting a savior? Round and round and round it goes......

So you're saying we're all 'little gods'?

RickD wrote:So you're saying we're all 'little gods'?

How can you expand upon something that is infinitely expansive?
How can you express a truth beyond what is infinitely truthful?
How can you love beyond what is infinitely loving?

How can something that is the infinite expression of all of these things, create something that doesn't have the same capacity of realization?

How can you return to something without the knowledge of where you came?

What are you saying, that an infinitely brilliant and loving God simply decided to create a bunch of broken wind up toys for 'his' amusement?

Perfection is not a state of being for humans but a state of "becoming".
God is perfect or He can't be "GOD".
The very understanding of the word God to a Judeo-Christian-Islamic believer means the ONLY perfect being in existence.
Can God create perfection?
That is kind of like asking can God create a square circle or a married bachelor to a certain extent but perhaps more correctly a stone to heavy that He can't move it.
God can't create Himself and since ONLY He is perfect then He would be creating Himself.
God can BEGET perfection, as we have in The Word, His Son Jesus.
God can create "very good" but perfection is not "possible" because, again, only God is perfect and that means creating Himself.

I really have no idea of what this guy is on about, none of it makes any sense to me.

So I am going to bow out now, I have said my thoughts as best I can but I would like to leave the following.

If the infinite void exists then there must be infinite possible universes and that means the Christian God exists in one possible universe, which means that being the Christian God by his definition must exists in all possible universes, which means the Christian God exists.

This is why I find an infinite void ludicrous.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I really have no idea of what this guy is on about, none of it makes any sense to me.

So I am going to bow out now, I have said my thoughts as best I can but I would like to leave the following.

If the infinite void exists then there must be infinite possible universes and that means the Christian God exists in one possible universe, which means that being the Christian God by his definition must exists in all possible universes, which means the Christian God exists.

This is why I find an infinite void ludicrous.

You're really going to follow PaulSacramento's post, eat it up and then declare that what I say makes no sense?



You know, I didn't even entertain responding to the numerous times you were arguing an infinite void against me because it wasn't really worth the time.... But you continue to bring it up!
Let's finally put that one to bed so that you can then gracefully bow out.
For the sake of 'easy' understanding, I began discussing an infinite arena free of any mass; hence, a void! How you got stuck on the first step/set up of the discussion is rather confusing to me!!?
Never once did I suggest an infinite void beyond a postulate for an easy understanding of an infinite arena..... You missed the point that if a universe can be created from a singularity (homage to Byblos) just once in an infinite arena (nobody has yet been able to demonstrate, elude too or even theorize a finite point of containment), it also demonstrates an infinite number of occurrences as it pertains to an infinite probability. I am in fact arguing the very distinct probability of infinite mass, you would know this if you were actually paying attention.
This is the inherent problem with belief; it spends so much energy focuses on disregarding anything existing outside of it's confines, that it loses all aspects of objectivity.