Evidence for God from Science

Hey, Outlaw. I've only been paying half attention to this thread, since I'm sure most people on here can do a much better job of explaining things then I can. However, there was something you said earlier I want to respond too. I don't feel like looking it up to quote (just did three homework assignments online, I'm done thumbing through webpages) but you asked why Jesus had to die on the cross and why that was 'fair'. You compared it to someone else's kid getting in trouble at school for something 'our' kid did voluntarily and if we could see that as acceptable.

No, it wouldn't be, because that wouldn't be 'fair'. Similarly, when I watch the news and I hear about some one getting in trouble for something, drunk driving maybe, my first response is that they should get the full extant of the law. They did the act, they are responsible. This is fair. I think you would agree on this part.

Let's extend the metaphor a bit. Lets say it was your wife. You two were having issues, maybe even separated. But you still love her completely and you both want to work things out. After a fight she left to the bar and had too many, her pride kept her from calling you for help so she decided to drive herself home. Things went wrong and after she crashed she called you. You're buddy takes you out there, maybe you had a few too (you're still thinking clearly, but you have some alcohol in your system). She's crying, sobbing really. You know she's been in trouble before and if the cops find her here she's had it. You also know that despite her mistakes she's a great person and the best wife you could ever have. You can hear the sirens in the distance.

You help her out, get her in your friend's car. Without a second thought you have them drive off and take her place in the driver's seat, waiting for the cops to get there, use the Breathalyzer, and put you in handcuffs.

'Fair'? Fair had nothing to do with it. There is no equality in love. Ask any decent parent, they would take a bullet for their child. Even if their kid is only getting shot at because they fell in with the wrong crowd and listened to people they shouldn't have against their parents advice. You see the gun pointed, you stand in the way.

outlaw wrote:Maybe it doesn't have to make sense to but you just believe it anyway, but how can you say your so grateful for what god has done for you when god only ever saved you from itself? It's more than no sense it's totally absurd

Step by step now.
Does it make sense to you that God created man capable of sinning?

Let’s see now, how can I best explain at this time how it works for me to believe that who the God I believe in is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and that the plan for my redemption is on my behalf and not for Him?

Let me give it another try Sir Outlaw., btw, it is a decent challenge that you put before us to think about who it is whom we have deposited our faith in, so thank you for that.

Let’s say that I am God, and that I chose to be either a God of Love and Order, or a God of Evil and Chaos. So I chose to be the first. By choosing to be made out of love and order I set in motion a nature that cannot accept evil and chaos, and if I was to allow evil and chaos to thrive, it would eventually triumph over love and order and destroy everything, therefore how could there be order or any semblance of love if evil and chaos triumphs?

Love begets Good and that Good created offspring to share in that Good. Offspring created in the image of the Creator; Offspring that would be able to partake of all the good of that order of things. But that offspring could not fully partake of that goodness and order of things unless they too had the same mind and heart that the Creator had. That offspring had to abide by that same nature to be partakers, but like all children of men do, the father wishes good and the best for them, but they drift, they rebel against the house rules, and some lose their way never to become as like their good father hoped.

Suppose that the nature of good by natural law has to extinguish all evil and chaos, and thus if the offspring are no longer good, how then can they continue in the order of things? They must by default be cut off. There’s no more perfection in them; there’s only imperfection. Knowing that there is a cutting off to be had under the natural law of good and order, there’s no way to allow them to continue, therefore a redemption must take place, one that brings back the chaos back into the fold of order, one that brings evil back into love. But the offspring cannot of their own accord regain the perfection in which they were created, because they corrupted that image, and how then can they be brought back to the fold of their own accord?

Chaos can't bring them back into order, and evil can't bring them back into love. Only Love can bring them back, and since the Perfect Love only exist in the Creator, He then must demonstrate the greatest of Love for that offspring. His Love is demonstrated to us in the version that we can understand best, and that is ~> sacrificing your most dearest and beloved, your own child., your own blood born out of Love between you and your other (loved) half., thus God has confronted you with His Love in Christ on the cross, born out of Love from Him on behalf of His other (loved) half ~> “us” ..

There is no greater Love than Christ on the Cross shedding His blood for You!

Christ was not sacrificed by God to make Himself happy., Christ willingly out of Love gave Himself so that You could achieve the image intended for you from the beginning; that image which you had lost.

Christ on the Cross was not so that God pleased Himself and be happy., it was so that you could achieve happiness., it was so that you could regain Paradise Lost!

How can you believe in Love unless True Love is fully demonstrated before you?

As I read these post, I want to say to all responding to outlaw - hearty a well done! You answered many of the things Outlaw mentioned very spot on. However, please understand that folks that hold Outlaw's views think God is petty, mean, cruel, and in this are absolved of their own pettiness. I used to think this way as a young atheist long ago and even used the same form of argument against Christians.

It is laughable as I look back at my past and also sad. Back then, I accused Christians of being self righteous hypocrites. Then one day, I took my last breath, died, and by God's grace alone was brought back to life. That ended my atheism as all thoughts and arguments about God were proved error. Yes, folks have a right to doubt this happened to me and say this or that against it, but it matters not to me. So with pity I look at those who hate God and cannot help but see that such are in reality looking into a mirror and hate what they see. Sadly this hate they project upon their concept God is the mirror image of themselves.

God is not unjust, or mean. His great love, he united himself with Humanity through Jesus Christ as great is the mystery of the nature of God in doing this: stepping into humanity to reconcile the war between man against God.

Jesus was God in the flesh and think of it, He took upon himself all human sins upon himself and paid our death penalty. With this act, he test people to see who has faith. You see, the Father just wants to know who will really trust him and if one can trust him, they will love. He even provides the means to secure our faith and seal us as his own transforming us freely out of darkness which we live one day at a time in this mortal life. He did all to win us back to himself, and prove he cares. This mortal life is temporary but the one to come is eternal and what really matters, In this life, it is we who screw it all up, not God. God allowing humanity to screw things up does not make him unjust either as he has to with great patients re-teach each successive generation his truths because we forget.

I find it amazing how the nature of God proceeded and came to us, revealing the God as Father is slow to anger, yet, does hold to account. God who came and died in our place so those that trust in what He did do not have to perish. Each I I read John 3:12-21 - I see this truth profoundly taught:

John 3:15-21 New Living Translation (NLT)

"12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life

14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

Starhunter wrote:There is one bit of research you may not have done, you have not tested what would happen if you submitted to God and asked Him to show you the truth. And you will never know until you do, what lies on the other side.
It is impossible to know what Christianity is until you have surrendered the will to Him. The moment you do that, your mind will be set free to be able to see both sides of the coin, but until then you are held captive to a misconception of God.

The surrender of the will to God does not disable you, or corner you, it gives you freedom. The daily surrender to God is like experiencing a loss, even akin to death at times, but unless we fall on the rock and be broken we will be crushed by it on the day of judgement. You wanted to know what payment God requires? - here it is - surrender.
The nature of sin is that it removes the ability to think outside of the box. The cross of Christ is the call to the sinner to have a life changing experience for the better.

Tell me what is wrong with the ten commandments, what is wrong with the example of Jesus' life on earth? Who gives you genuine liberty and love? Self serving Inmates or Christ? How are you going to pay for your sins? There is no way.
What sin is so precious that you have to hold on to it?
When you give in to Christ, you are not just letting go of harmful self indulgences, but you are letting go of grief and anger and pain as well.

There is one bit of research you may not have done, you have not tested what would happen if you submitted to Vishnu and asked Him to show you the truth. And you will never know until you do, what lies on the other side.
It is impossible to know what Vaishnavism is until you have surrendered the will to Him. The moment you do that, your mind will be set free to be able to see both sides of the coin, but until then you are held captive to a misconception of Vishnu.

The surrender of the will to Vishnu does not disable you, or corner you, it gives you freedom. The daily surrender to Vishnu is like experiencing a loss, even akin to death at times, but unless we fall on the rock and be broken we will be crushed by it on the day of judgement. You wanted to know what payment Vishnu requires? - here it is - surrender.
The nature of sin is that it removes the ability to think outside of the box. The cross of Krishna is the call to the sinner to have a life changing experience for the better.

Do you see how silly it is? i can insert any other figure that is claimed to make peoples lives more fulfilling or meaningful or they claim provides them the truth, so if only you'd surrender to THEM then you will be free, then you'll know the truth then you'd have life changing experiences until you let Krishna into your heart you'll never know.

Tell me what is wrong with the ten commandments, what is wrong with the example of Jesus' life on earth? Who gives you genuine liberty and love? Self serving Inmates or Christ? How are you going to pay for your sins? There is no way.
What sin is so precious that you have to hold on to it?
When you give in to Christ, you are not just letting go of harmful self indulgences, but you are letting go of grief and anger and pain as well

Firstly you just opened another can of worms, which is the exodus as described in the bible never happened but lets not go there.

Ten commandments, Which ones?

EXODUS 20:2-17
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet.

EXODUS 34:12-27
1. Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
2. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
3. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
4. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib.
5. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
6. But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck.
7. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
8. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest.
9. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

If were talking about exodus 20 then the first 4 are just commandments of a jealous vain and vindictive god who threatens to punish unto the third and forth generations, This demonstrates that god is jealous and insecure, jealousy is the fear of losing affection or position, gods fear of this and empty threats make it come across as a spoilt brat not a almighty creator. Maybe god should of given itself some confidence.

The other 6, well the fact that some people need these to be written down is quite scary, i mean if the only thing stopping you from doing these things is that god doesn't like you doing them then that says more about you than anything, (i'm not saying this is the case with you im just saying)
Do one to others, pretty much covers the last 6.

There is nothing inspiring about these commandments in fact there are 613 do's and dont's in the bible why just pick 10?
Maybe because the most of the other 603 are utterly absurd and embarrassing to admit that your god would even mention them.

Ill pay for my sins however god chooses.
But how are you going to pay for yours since Jesus already has for you?

SeekingSanctuary wrote:Hey, Outlaw. I've only been paying half attention to this thread, since I'm sure most people on here can do a much better job of explaining things then I can. However, there was something you said earlier I want to respond too. I don't feel like looking it up to quote (just did three homework assignments online, I'm done thumbing through webpages) but you asked why Jesus had to die on the cross and why that was 'fair'. You compared it to someone else's kid getting in trouble at school for something 'our' kid did voluntarily and if we could see that as acceptable.

No, it wouldn't be, because that wouldn't be 'fair'. Similarly, when I watch the news and I hear about some one getting in trouble for something, drunk driving maybe, my first response is that they should get the full extant of the law. They did the act, they are responsible. This is fair. I think you would agree on this part.

Let's extend the metaphor a bit. Lets say it was your wife. You two were having issues, maybe even separated. But you still love her completely and you both want to work things out. After a fight she left to the bar and had too many, her pride kept her from calling you for help so she decided to drive herself home. Things went wrong and after she crashed she called you. You're buddy takes you out there, maybe you had a few too (you're still thinking clearly, but you have some alcohol in your system). She's crying, sobbing really. You know she's been in trouble before and if the cops find her here she's had it. You also know that despite her mistakes she's a great person and the best wife you could ever have. You can hear the sirens in the distance.

You help her out, get her in your friend's car. Without a second thought you have them drive off and take her place in the driver's seat, waiting for the cops to get there, use the Breathalyzer, and put you in handcuffs.

'Fair'? Fair had nothing to do with it. There is no equality in love. Ask any decent parent, they would take a bullet for their child. Even if their kid is only getting shot at because they fell in with the wrong crowd and listened to people they shouldn't have against their parents advice. You see the gun pointed, you stand in the way.

You see but god is not TAKING A BULLET FOR YOU he's only STOPPING HIMSELF FROM PULLING THE TRIGGER that's the difference that's what you all fail to understand. Unless you do understand it but still think it's great, and to that i say, your crazy.
No sane person would thank their spouse for NOT beating them.

1over137 wrote:

outlaw wrote:Maybe it doesn't have to make sense to but you just believe it anyway, but how can you say your so grateful for what god has done for you when god only ever saved you from itself? It's more than no sense it's totally absurd

Step by step now.
Does it make sense to you that God created man capable of sinning?

Not if it didn't want us to sin (which it doesn't) and needed to sacrifice its son /self for it.
Not if god could of created man any way it liked which would include a way in which a sacrifice wasn't required.
So no it makes no sense at all

B. W. wrote:As I read these post, I want to say to all responding to outlaw - hearty a well done! You answered many of the things Outlaw mentioned very spot on. However, please understand that folks that hold Outlaw's views think God is petty, mean, cruel, and in this are absolved of their own pettiness. I used to think this way as a young atheist long ago and even used the same form of argument against Christians.

It is laughable as I look back at my past and also sad. Back then, I accused Christians of being self righteous hypocrites. Then one day, I took my last breath, died, and by God's grace alone was brought back to life. That ended my atheism as all thoughts and arguments about God were proved error. Yes, folks have a right to doubt this happened to me and say this or that against it, but it matters not to me. So with pity I look at those who hate God and cannot help but see that such are in reality looking into a mirror and hate what they see. Sadly this hate they project upon their concept God is the mirror image of themselves.

God is not unjust, or mean. His great love, he united himself with Humanity through Jesus Christ as great is the mystery of the nature of God in doing this: stepping into humanity to reconcile the war between man against God.

Jesus was God in the flesh and think of it, He took upon himself all human sins upon himself and paid our death penalty. With this act, he test people to see who has faith. You see, the Father just wants to know who will really trust him and if one can trust him, they will love. He even provides the means to secure our faith and seal us as his own transforming us freely out of darkness which we live one day at a time in this mortal life. He did all to win us back to himself, and prove he cares. This mortal life is temporary but the one to come is eternal and what really matters, In this life, it is we who screw it all up, not God. God allowing humanity to screw things up does not make him unjust either as he has to with great patients re-teach each successive generation his truths because we forget.

I find it amazing how the nature of God proceeded and came to us, revealing the God as Father is slow to anger, yet, does hold to account. God who came and died in our place so those that trust in what He did do not have to perish. Each I I read John 3:12-21 - I see this truth profoundly taught:

John 3:15-21 New Living Translation (NLT)

"12 But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life

14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

Spare us the preaching for Gods sake.

Lonewolf wrote:Let’s see now, how can I best explain at this time how it works for me to believe that who the God I believe in is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and that the plan for my redemption is on my behalf and not for Him?

Let me give it another try Sir Outlaw., btw, it is a decent challenge that you put before us to think about who it is whom we have deposited our faith in, so thank you for that.

Let’s say that I am God, and that I chose to be either a God of Love and Order, or a God of Evil and Chaos. So I chose to be the first. By choosing to be made out of love and order I set in motion a nature that cannot accept evil and chaos, and if I was to allow evil and chaos to thrive, it would eventually triumph over love and order and destroy everything, therefore how could there be order or any semblance of love if evil and chaos triumphs?

Love begets Good and that Good created offspring to share in that Good. Offspring created in the image of the Creator; Offspring that would be able to partake of all the good of that order of things. But that offspring could not fully partake of that goodness and order of things unless they too had the same mind and heart that the Creator had. That offspring had to abide by that same nature to be partakers, but like all children of men do, the father wishes good and the best for them, but they drift, they rebel against the house rules, and some lose their way never to become as like their good father hoped.

Suppose that the nature of good by natural law has to extinguish all evil and chaos, and thus if the offspring are no longer good, how then can they continue in the order of things? They must by default be cut off. There’s no more perfection in them; there’s only imperfection. Knowing that there is a cutting off to be had under the natural law of good and order, there’s no way to allow them to continue, therefore a redemption must take place, one that brings back the chaos back into the fold of order, one that brings evil back into love. But the offspring cannot of their own accord regain the perfection in which they were created, because they corrupted that image, and how then can they be brought back to the fold of their own accord?

Chaos can't bring them back into order, and evil can't bring them back into love. Only Love can bring them back, and since the Perfect Love only exist in the Creator, He then must demonstrate the greatest of Love for that offspring. His Love is demonstrated to us in the version that we can understand best, and that is ~> sacrificing your most dearest and beloved, your own child., your own blood born out of Love between you and your other (loved) half., thus God has confronted you with His Love in Christ on the cross, born out of Love from Him on behalf of His other (loved) half ~> “us” ..

There is no greater Love than Christ on the Cross shedding His blood for You!

Christ was not sacrificed by God to make Himself happy., Christ willingly out of Love gave Himself so that You could achieve the image intended for you from the beginning; that image which you had lost.

Christ on the Cross was not so that God pleased Himself and be happy., it was so that you could achieve happiness., it was so that you could regain Paradise Lost!

How can you believe in Love unless True Love is fully demonstrated before you?

So now your delving into the complicated area of the Trinity which I think Christians themselves can't even comprehend. You could ask 10 different people who say their Christians to explain how this Trinity works and you'd get 10 different answers you'd also get ones that don't believe in a Trinity. So when you can all come to a consensus about what's the correct way to view this then people like myself can start to figure out what you mean.
So just for clarification I need to find out how your version of this god/ jesus/ holy spirit thing works but at the same time I don't want it to hijack the original question so
Is Jesus god? Or part of eg the human part
Did god sacrifice Jesus or himself?
Did Jesus sacrifice himself?
Was the sole purpose of Jesus birth/life to be a sacrifice or for him to sacrifice himself?
Was the sacrifice part of gods plan from the beginning, or was it an afterthought? Was the idea only thought of after god realized what people were doing?
I'm not after evidence of this, just what you believe to be the case so short answers will be enough.

There is no greater Love than Christ on the Cross shedding His blood for You!

The only reason why Jesus had to shed blood was because god couldn't think of another way to forgive but if god is Jesus then he pretty much just sacrificed himself to save himself from his own rule. If Its the case that humans get our sense of love from this act or from god then why do I not feel one bit of love when I'm told this or read it?
Why do I and 2/3 's of the worlds population not think or feel this is love?

The only happiness the crucifixion provides is the happiness that comes with knowing you can still sin and not be punished for it because Jesus took gods beating instead, when someone else gets punished for something I did, that doesn't make me happy. It might make you happy but I that's why I find the redemption sacrifice thing a little disturbing. Celebrating a human blood sacrifice isn't my idea of a good time, ya know what I mean.

To respond to the 'how can you believe in love unless true love is demonstrated to you'
I find it strange that you can think that the only way we can believe in love is if a supernatural deity sacrifices it's son/self to show us, and the reason you believe this is because 2000 years ago a bunch of people claim this supernatural being told them this and 80odd years after Jesus died people recorded these stories then some time after that the church decided what stories they should include in their book and what they shouldn't.
You see adherents of other religions would claim the only way to know true love is because their god shows them and whatever it is is demonstrated in their holy text. The reason they know this is the truth is because their holy text says it is, they're holy text says their god is the true god and the others are false.

This is what I find interesting about people who claim they believe in god, they try to give reasons why but when that fails because they would have to accept those same reasons from others who don't share the same belief then they try to resort back to 'well I just have faith' but then when you realise that if were going to rely on faith then you could just as easily adopt any belief because they all require faith. So you get this to and fro between reason and faith and it just goes back and forth because none of them are a valid reason for or a way of determining if something is true or not.

Outlaw,
It is quite amusing to see all these people trying to fill a glass of water that is already full. If you can't receive more, why ask. I am not going to get into a lot of theology. I didn't have time to read all the dialogue but I do want to help answer your questions and hopefully let the Spirit of God work on you, so that you may be saved. The trinity is a side point, regardless of you trying to side track, you cannot find the word "trinity" in the Bible can you? But that is beside the point, why would God make death the punishment for sin? In short only because He did. Now you had mentioned somewhere back that you would prefer to have been created a "robot" with no free will but programed to think you have free will so that you could avoid, suffering and death. Instead of being created a moral being that decides and therefore sins. Problem is you are not the one who wrote the rules to the Game. God did for all of us here! You cannot avoid suffering! You will suffer and you will die, as all of us will. There is no escape of that is there? So if you have to suffer for a reason, would it not be better to suffer for a reason that no reason at all? The Bible says that suffering brings patience and strength when it is for a good reason. No need to repeat what you have heard, but the Bible teaches that Jesus came to save mankind by His substitution on the cross and save us from death by being raised from death. But then again that is just the rules GOD wrote and we find in our Bibles. Also you are welcome to believe that God is not the maker of the rules written in the Bible, but you had better be 100% sure before you suffer and die that you ARE the author of your own rules in the game of this short life. I personally do not think there is a restart button. So do you want to wait to death to find out who is right?

outlaw wrote:The only happiness the crucifixion provides is the happiness that comes with knowing you can still sin and not be punished for it because Jesus took gods beating instead, when someone else gets punished for something I did, that doesn't make me happy. It might make you happy but I that's why I find the redemption sacrifice thing a little disturbing. Celebrating a human blood sacrifice isn't my idea of a good time, ya know what I mean.

This you think about Christians?



You also mentioned Old Testament, commandments, and God's 'jealousy'.
If you are interested in getting the answers the book by Paul Copan: Is God a Moral Monster is a great one. I am in the middle of reading the kindle edition.

fasteel wrote:Outlaw,
It is quite amusing to see all these people trying to fill a glass of water that is already full. If you can't receive more, why ask. I am not going to get into a lot of theology. I didn't have time to read all the dialogue but I do want to help answer your questions and hopefully let the Spirit of God work on you, so that you may be saved. The trinity is a side point, regardless of you trying to side track, you cannot find the word "trinity" in the Bible can you? But that is beside the point, why would God make death the punishment for sin? In short only because He did. Now you had mentioned somewhere back that you would prefer to have been created a "robot" with no free will but programed to think you have free will so that you could avoid, suffering and death. Instead of being created a moral being that decides and therefore sins. Problem is you are not the one who wrote the rules to the Game. God did for all of us here! You cannot avoid suffering! You will suffer and you will die, as all of us will. There is no escape of that is there? So if you have to suffer for a reason, would it not be better to suffer for a reason that no reason at all? The Bible says that suffering brings patience and strength when it is for a good reason. No need to repeat what you have heard, but the Bible teaches that Jesus came to save mankind by His substitution on the cross and save us from death by being raised from death. But then again that is just the rules GOD wrote and we find in our Bibles. Also you are welcome to believe that God is not the maker of the rules written in the Bible, but you had better be 100% sure before you suffer and die that you ARE the author of your own rules in the game of this short life. I personally do not think there is a restart button. So do you want to wait to death to find out who is right?

I know we can't avoid suffering and death but that's only because god made it that way so why should I thank it?
So what is gods reason for suffering? If a child suffers for the first 3 years of its life and dies what patience did that child learn how did it gain strength? and if that child was a child of parents who believed in another god and the child didn't accept Jesus then your god would punish it again in the afterlife by not allowing it into its kingdom, what possible reason can you give to explain the purpose of this.
Its not a matter of me not believing that god was the maker of the rules its the fact that if he was, then the whole redemption salvation plan makes no sense and Jesus was sacrificed for nothing. And it baffles me why a god that restrains itself from carrying out the punishment it had in stall for us is seen as loving.
If I made a rule that I was going to stick an axe in your forehead if you walk on my lawn then after you walk on my lawn I decide I'm not going to do that would you thank me for it and tell everyone how loving I was for not sticking an axe through your skull?
Your last question is talking about pascals wager ( read up about it if your not familiar with it)so I don't really need to answer it more than to say you'll also have wait till you die, you might get a shock and find out that Mohammed was the real god and end up paying the price for not having faith in him. No I'm not afraid of death just like I'm not afraid of the year 1926 because I didn't exist in 1926 and you know what, it didn't hurt a bit, the only thing I'd be afraid of is what your god would do to me if it was real, but I'm sure your god who is supposed to know our inner thoughts would already know this wouldn't it?

1over137 wrote:

outlaw wrote:The only happiness the crucifixion provides is the happiness that comes with knowing you can still sin and not be punished for it because Jesus took gods beating instead, when someone else gets punished for something I did, that doesn't make me happy. It might make you happy but I that's why I find the redemption sacrifice thing a little disturbing. Celebrating a human blood sacrifice isn't my idea of a good time, ya know what I mean.

This you think about Christians?



You also mentioned Old Testament, commandments, and God's 'jealousy'.
If you are interested in getting the answers the book by Paul Copan: Is God a Moral Monster is a great one. I am in the middle of reading the kindle edition.

Thanks but this is not how I decide because if Paul Copan believes that god isn't a moral monster then his book will be bias, I could tell you to read something else who would say he is and point out all the passages why. The fact you even have to ask the question should say something in itself. Make up your own mind you have the ability to reason and make a judgement. You shouldn't need other books to try to help explain what the bible really says, why is god so bad and ambiguous when it comes to his word?
Like I've said before if you want to know the real condition of a used car don't ask the salesman. Look yourself and make up your own mind. Your not going to find out the truth of Islam by asking a Catholic priest.

1over137 wrote:

outlaw wrote:The only happiness the crucifixion provides is the happiness that comes with knowing you can still sin and not be punished for it because Jesus took gods beating instead, when someone else gets punished for something I did, that doesn't make me happy. It might make you happy but I that's why I find the redemption sacrifice thing a little disturbing. Celebrating a human blood sacrifice isn't my idea of a good time, ya know what I mean.

This you think about Christians?



You also mentioned Old Testament, commandments, and God's 'jealousy'.
If you are interested in getting the answers the book by Paul Copan: Is God a Moral Monster is a great one. I am in the middle of reading the kindle edition.

Why does the sacrifice of jesus fill you with joy then?

outlaw wrote:

1over137 wrote:

outlaw wrote:The only happiness the crucifixion provides is the happiness that comes with knowing you can still sin and not be punished for it because Jesus took gods beating instead, when someone else gets punished for something I did, that doesn't make me happy. It might make you happy but I that's why I find the redemption sacrifice thing a little disturbing. Celebrating a human blood sacrifice isn't my idea of a good time, ya know what I mean.

This you think about Christians?



You also mentioned Old Testament, commandments, and God's 'jealousy'.
If you are interested in getting the answers the book by Paul Copan: Is God a Moral Monster is a great one. I am in the middle of reading the kindle edition.

Thanks but this is not how I decide because if Paul Copan believes that god isn't a moral monster then his book will be bias, I could tell you to read something else who would say he is and point out all the passages why. The fact you even have to ask the question should say something in itself. Make up your own mind you have the ability to reason and make a judgement. You shouldn't need other books to try to help explain what the bible really says, why is god so bad and ambiguous when it comes to his word?
Like I've said before if you want to know the real condition of a used car don't ask the salesman. Look yourself and make up your own mind. Your not going to find out the truth of Islam by asking a Catholic priest.

And maybe the fact that Copan had to write the book (opposing new atheist movement) 'should say something in itself'.

At the end, I am making my own mind. I am able to reason. Even God encourages that. "Come now, let us reason together."

Well, I need other books. I need them because I do not live in era thousand years ago. I am curious about it so that I could better understand those times.

Well, ya, Bible itself is enough to understand essential truths.