Evidence for God from Science

Audie wrote:Well nobody knows, and motives for non objectivity are not limited to any one pov.

No, the point is that we DO KNOW what constitutes brain activity and we DO KNOW when a brain is active or not.
That is not ONE POV.
There are various methods that are used, as I am sure you k now, and while they all have SOME limitations, those limitations are not in diagnosing IF the brain is actually active or not.
Perhaps you are confusing clinical death with brain death?

A person can be clinically dead and still have brain activity, such as heart attack victims, and DYING brains are still active for some time.

Here:
http://scitechdaily.com/study-shows-ele ... cal-death/

This is NOT the same as being brain dead which means NO activity in the brain.

Audie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Audie wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:The issue isn't "how" dead a person is when they have an NDE, the issue is if there is NO brain activity at all, then there can be no hallucinations or projected illusions.

That sounds reasonable. Is it also reasonable to think that there is much still not known about neurophysiology?

No detectable activity is not necessarily the same as no activity.

They were on NPR the other day, something about a guy who was thought to be in a vegetative state..you know, brain activity and all.. and when he did come out of the coma, he said something about what a torture it had been to have had Barney the dinosaur on the tv playing constantly. About hearing his mother say she wished he'd just g o ahead and die.

I think its way premature to say "no brain activity".

With regard to "how dead" there is no more a bright line distinction between alive and dead than there is between day and night.

True, there is much we still need to understand about the brain.
That said we do KNOW that if there is no brain activity, and by that I mean no bio-electrical activity, then there can be no neuron activity and if there is no neuron activity then, well, the brain is NOT working.

Vegetative state is, typically, NOT viewed as no brain activity but as no conscious activity.

A persistent vegetative state is a disorder of consciousness in which patients with severe brain damage are in a state of partial arousal rather than true awareness. It is a diagnosis of some uncertainty in that it deals with a syndrome.

But we dont know that there is no brain activity. The KISS solution on what the NDE is a about is that there is in fact brain activity.

Note your words there where you said about how things are typically viewed and an example of that view being incorrect.

There are problems here with the assumption that we still don't know everything going about the brain and then extrapolating that a few electrical currents of a brain that has been severely damaged or non functioning can have these types of experiences.

This is why the verification nde's destroy this theory, especially the unique nde of doctor eben alexander in which he died , went to heaven and was guided through heaven by a spirit guide who turned out to be a sister he never knew who had died earlier in her life. To keep holding to the "we just don't know everything about the brain " theory is not only unscientific but irrational . All of the evidence doesn't fit with the brain being able to generate these experiences , plus how does a brain give the kind of info that alexander retrieves .

When doctor alexander saw the picture of his sister and instantly recognized her as his spirit guide he said it was as if she was mocking as if she were telling him "do you finally get it now ?

Only the hardened of hearts will still deny what is the mm out obvious answer here.

Unbelievers don't have a brain problem but a heart problem.

I dont deny that much is known of brain activity. The POV I referred to concerns what the "NDE" actually is about.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Audie wrote:Well nobody knows, and motives for non objectivity are not limited to any one pov.

No, the point is that we DO KNOW what constitutes brain activity and we DO KNOW when a brain is active or not.
That is not ONE POV.
There are various methods that are used, as I am sure you k now, and while they all have SOME limitations, those limitations are not in diagnosing IF the brain is actually active or not.
Perhaps you are confusing clinical death with brain death?

A person can be clinically dead and still have brain activity, such as heart attack victims, and DYING brains are still active for some time.

Here:
http://scitechdaily.com/study-shows-ele ... cal-death/

This is NOT the same as being brain dead which means NO activity in the brain.

Yes the brain surge in rats is an interesting study paul. It showed that there is a surge of brain activity in rats that is deeper then what the eeg can detect , but skeptics leave out a tiny little detail, namely that all the rats that were u ser anesthesia didn't have any brain surge at all, and many nde experiences have had nde's while under anesthesia .

This brain activity is also blown away by examples such as a girl having no heart beat for 35 minutes yet having a complete verifiable veredical nde.

Like I said before there is not one nde researcher that believes that the brain is causing the nde in these patients yet we have the consensus belief at the academic level that the mind is the brain.

If you look at the neuroscience professors at major universities you will see that many are atheist/materialists, but cling to explanations of nde's that have all been refuted .

Oxford educated professor patricia churchland is a classic example of this and you can see how ignorant she was in her interview at skeptiko as she was completely humiliated in the skeptiko interview.

Philip wrote:

Bip: Mwahhahahahahaha , imagine me being your ping pong opponent for all eternity ?

I did play the 1967 Indiana university ping pong champ in a tournament ....... In 1993 , and still lost lol

Bip, I don't know about ping pong (I suck at it!), but it just occurred to me that heaven may be the first time we all get to meet up. Imagine THAT! All kidding and silliness aside, I sure hope Min will join us / will WANT to join us (of course, not for US) - she'll find that we're all likely a lot different than the mere wise guys she probably thinks we are.

Philip, I had a serve which I did that would bounce on my opponents side of the table and come back to me side of the table . You should see the look on my opponents face as he is waiting for the ball to come towards him and instead it returns back to me

On a serious note yes I would love it if min would want to join us . I wish heaven for everyone and I think it will be a never ending party . On a side note me and drds will sample a lot of pizza
And I hope dolly Parton (my school boy crush) will be there as well

Bip: eben alexander in which he died , went to heaven and was guided through heaven by a spirit guide who turned out to be a sister he never knew who had died earlier in her life. To keep holding to the "we just don't know everything about the brain " theory is not only unscientific but irrational . All of the evidence doesn't fit with the brain being able to generate these experiences , plus how does a brain give the kind of info that alexander retrieves .

When doctor alexander saw the picture of his sister and instantly recognized her as his spirit guide he said it was as if she was mocking as if she were telling him "do you finally get it now ?

Only the hardened of hearts will still deny what is the mm out obvious answer here.

While Alexander's NDE might well have been EXPERIENCED, it STILL was an obvious deception - see my post about it here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... er#p142385

And remember, Alexander only described superficial imagery of what Heaven might contain, but he was NOT a Christian before he "passed away" - meaning, there is NO way that He went, however briefly, to Heaven, into the very abode of the Lord. And notice that He says absolutely NOTHING about Jesus or the Lord's presence (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... angel.html). Also, note the prominent New Ager Oprah Winfrey embraced his story.

Philip wrote:

Bip: eben alexander in which he died , went to heaven and was guided through heaven by a spirit guide who turned out to be a sister he never knew who had died earlier in her life. To keep holding to the "we just don't know everything about the brain " theory is not only unscientific but irrational . All of the evidence doesn't fit with the brain being able to generate these experiences , plus how does a brain give the kind of info that alexander retrieves .

When doctor alexander saw the picture of his sister and instantly recognized her as his spirit guide he said it was as if she was mocking as if she were telling him "do you finally get it now ?

Only the hardened of hearts will still deny what is the mm out obvious answer here.

While Alexander's NDE might well have been EXPERIENCED, it STILL was an obvious deception - see my post about it here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... er#p142385

And remember, Alexander only described superficial imagery of what Heaven might contain, but he was NOT a Christian before he "passed away" - meaning, there is NO way that He went, however briefly, to Heaven, into the very abode of the Lord. And notice that He says absolutely NOTHING about Jesus or the Lord's presence (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... angel.html). Also, note the prominent New Ager Oprah Winfrey embraced his story.

There is a big difference between having a cold hard heart, and having enough healthy skepticism / common sense to know that you might not REALLY have won the Dutch Lottery, even tho the caller says all you have to do is pay the taxes and you can collect 5 million.

To the extent that Christians fall for religious hoaxes and generally show a lack of common sense in their beleifs they tend to make their religion look.......you know the drill.

Philip wrote:

Bip: eben alexander in which he died , went to heaven and was guided through heaven by a spirit guide who turned out to be a sister he never knew who had died earlier in her life. To keep holding to the "we just don't know everything about the brain " theory is not only unscientific but irrational . All of the evidence doesn't fit with the brain being able to generate these experiences , plus how does a brain give the kind of info that alexander retrieves .

When doctor alexander saw the picture of his sister and instantly recognized her as his spirit guide he said it was as if she was mocking as if she were telling him "do you finally get it now ?

Only the hardened of hearts will still deny what is the mm out obvious answer here.

While Alexander's NDE might well have been EXPERIENCED, it STILL was an obvious deception - see my post about it here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... er#p142385

And remember, Alexander only described superficial imagery of what Heaven might contain, but he was NOT a Christian before he "passed away" - meaning, there is NO way that He went, however briefly, to Heaven, into the very abode of the Lord. And notice that He says absolutely NOTHING about Jesus or the Lord's presence (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... angel.html). Also, note the prominent New Ager Oprah Winfrey embraced his story.

Phillip what about professor Howard storm who was a practicing militant atheist who had his nde and saw Jesus ?
He wasn't a Christian before he had his nde and he did say he was in heaven .

When I had an out of body experience, I saw Mohammed Ali.

Audie wrote:When I had an out of body experience, I saw Mohammed Ali.

It's Muhammad Ali, with a u. Unless you saw some other guy who spells his name with an o.

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:When I had an out of body experience, I saw Mohammed Ali.

It's Muhammad Ali, with a u. Unless you saw some other guy who spells his name with an o.

Huh. You are right. First time. Try to keep it up, pongo.

OK, this is a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG post, as I want to shed some light on the NDEs mentioned by Bippy. I think the topic is very important and I hope my comments will provide some healthy skepticism that one should bring to ANY such account - whether genuine or not:

Bip: Phillip what about professor Howard Storm who was a practicing militant atheist who had his nde and saw Jesus ?
He wasn't a Christian before he had his nde and he did say he was in heaven .

Bippy, do you actually believe that a non-Christian can step foot in Heaven? How would that work? Only BELIEVERS can go to heaven. Only those God has transformed through faith. Now, many unbelievers stood in the presence of Jesus while He was in His flesh, but ONLY while He remained on earth.

Bip, most respectfully, we've got to be EXTREMELY cautious as to what we accept from another person's perception of their own individual EXPERIENCE. We weren't there, we can't know 1) IF he even had it, it wasn't fabricated, or 2) whether he wasn't likely deceived. I detail a few reasons below:

In his book, Storm states, "I never saw God, and I was NOT in heaven. It was way out in the suburbs, and these are the things that they showed me." (Here's his story, here: http://www.near-death.com/storm.html). There are a number of troubling aspects to it.

So, Storm says he spoke with a figure he believed to be Jesus, but that he wasn't God, and that he (Storm) wasn't actually in Heaven, but in the distance.

Here are a few interesting outtakes Storm said in an interview (http://www.skeptiko.com/254-howard-storm-transformed/):

"For example, a couple years ago I was in China with an absolutely lovely clearly spiritually developed woman who said, ‘I’m a Buddhist, I’m not a Christian, I’m not interested in Christianity.’ And I said to her, ‘You’re doing just fine, and I’m not here to change that.’ I have found comfort and guidance and truth, I found everything I’d been looking for in Christianity, and I want to share that with people, I have read Hinduism, Buddhism, and Baha’i faith—I find some good, or a lot of good in many and or all of them. To me, there are two kinds of people in the world, one is people who love religion, and one is people who love God. I love people who love God and I don’t care what religion they belong to, and I don’t really like people who love religion.

"Yeah, I’m promoting Christianity, because that’s what I know and that’s what works for me. I can’t really go around and promote universal religion because there is no such thing."

"One of the things that people get upset with me for is I want to affirm people’s love and pursuit of God in whatever culture they’ve grown up in. And Christians say, ‘Well, you shouldn’t do that.’ And I say, ‘Oh, so it’s better to go around and beat up people for their love of God? That’s crazy, Jesus didn’t do that.’ Jesus, when he met people from different cultures, loved them and affirmed them the way they were. For example, a Syro-phoenician woman, a Samaritan woman, a Roman centurion—and he suddenly loved and affirmed people in his culture who were condemned to death. For example, the woman caught in adultery, the thief on the cross. Jesus loved and affirmed people where they were at and didn’t say, ‘You have to do this, you have to do that and subscribe to a set of dogmas and I might consider you.’ This judgmental nature of Christians and this need to make people conform to their understanding before they can accept them is contrary to the example of what I see in the gospels."

Notice that Storm is blurring the line between God's mandate that we unconditionally love people and Jesus' clear and redundant admonitions and condemnation of those unwilling to repent and have faith, in fact His dire warnings to ALL merely following the religious traditions of MAN. Jesus clearly never said God doesn't have a narrow pathway (ONLY through Jesus!) or ALL men to come to Him - actually, quite the opposite! But Storm asserts such a belief is "judgmental" and that there is no one "universal religion" or any ONE pathway to God.

In his book, concerning His experience, Storm speaks very little of Jesus, and he doesn't equate Him with being God. He speaks mostly of angelic beings. Storm describes a figure He believed was Jesus – but he seems to differentiate him from being God Himself. He called this figure a “luminous entity that embraced me knew me intimately and began to communicate a tremendous sense of knowledge. I knew that he knew everything about me and I was being unconditionally loved and accepted. The light conveyed to me that it loved me in a way that I can't begin to express. It loved me in a way that I had never known that love could possibly be. He was a concentrated field of energy, radiant in splendor indescribable, except to say goodness and love. This was more loving than one can imagine. I knew that this radiant being was powerful. It was making me feel so good all over. I could feel its light on me - like very gentle hands around me. And I could feel it holding me. But it was loving me with overwhelming power. After what I had been through, to be completely known, accepted, and intensely loved by this Being of Light surpassed anything I had known or could have imagined."

God (the "Great Being") wasn't "the light"/Jesus: "Embraced by the light, feeling wonderful and crying … we stopped where we were, still countless miles away from the Great Being. For the first time, my friend, and I will refer to him in that context hereafter, said to me, 'You belong here.'"

Angelic beings were the primary creatures communicating with Storm, who were also providing things only God could know and do: “These beings were giving me what I needed at that time. To my surprise, and also distress, they seemed to be capable of knowing everything I was thinking … everything I thought, they knew. They all seemed to know and understand me very well and to be completely familiar with my thoughts and my past. I didn't feel any desire to ask for someone I had known because they all knew me. Nobody could know me any better … I don't know if they were related to me or not. It felt like they were closer to me than anyone I had ever known.”

"Throughout my conversation with the luminous beings, which lasted for what seemed like a very long time, I was being physically supported by the being in whom I had been engulfed. We were in a sense completely stationary yet hanging in space. Everywhere around us were countless radiant beings, like stars in the sky, coming and going. It was like a super magnified view of a galaxy super packed with stars. And in the giant radiance of the center they were packed so densely together that individuals could not be identified. Their selves were in such harmony with the Creator that they were really just one."

So, there's a New Age type of God described by Storm.

These beings were one with God: “One of the reasons, I was told, that all the countless beings had to go back to their source was to become invigorated with this sense of harmony and oneness. Being apart for too long a time diminished them and made them feel separate. Their greatest pleasure was to go back to the sources of all life.”

When Storm's life review "movie" was finished, they (the angels) asked, "Do you want to ask any questions?" and I had a million questions. I asked, for example, "What about the Bible?" They responded, "What about it?" I asked if it was true, and they said it was.”

“I asked them, for example, which was the best religion. I was looking for an answer which was like, "Presbyterians." I figured these guys were all Christians. The answer I got was, "The best religion is the religion that brings you closest to God."

Storm bizarrely asks the angels geopolitical questions and the angels tell him about the future – but only God knows the future!:
“Because of my fear of a nuclear holocaust I asked if there was going to be a nuclear war in the world, and they said 'no'".

“They said, "No, there isn't going to be any nuclear war."

But the angels, futurists they supposedly were, were a bit unsure: “Their response was: "God loves the world." They told me that at the most, one or two (WHICH is it?!!!) nuclear weapons might go off accidentally, if (?!) they weren't destroyed, but there wouldn't be a nuclear war.”

The angels told him humans are all “globally linked. And we could become one people.” And that “the people that they gave the privilege of leading the world into a better age, blew it. That was us, in the United States.”

He says, “they made clear to me that we have free will. If we change the way we are, then WE can change the future which they showed me. They showed me a view of the future, at the time of my experience, based upon how we in the United States was behaving at that time. It was a future in which a massive worldwide depression would occur. If we (the U.S.) were to change our behavior, however, then the future would be different.”

Note that it's not repentance to God that could change the future, but we just have to be better, love each other more and try harder:

The angels further instruct,“that the only way to change the world was to begin with one person. One will become two, which will become three, and so on. That's the only way to affect a major change.”

The angels describe a world were happiness isn't God-centered, but grand experiences and fun-oriented:

“ In this future, people had no wanderlust, because they could, spiritually, communicate with everyone else in the world. There was no need to go elsewhere. They were so engrossed with where they were and the people around them that they didn't have to go on vacation. Vacation from what? They were completely fulfilled and happy.”

Again, the angels talk political events, as Howard Storm recorded how “his light being friends told him, in 1985, that the Cold War would soon end, because, "God is changing the hearts of people to love around the world."

So, the Soviet Union didn't run out of money in an economic and political collapse, but love ended the Cold War???!!! REALLY?!!!

More politics: “He asked the light beings the question, "Will the United States be the leader of the world in this change?"

The light beings replied, "The United States has been given the opportunity to be the teacher for the world, but much is expected of those to whom much has been given. The United States has been given more of everything than any country in the history of the world and it has failed to be generous with the gifts. If the United States continues to exploit the rest of the world by greedily consuming the world's resources, the United States will have God's blessing withdrawn. Your country will collapse economically which will result in civil chaos. Because of the greedy nature of the people, you will have people killing people for a cup of gasoline. The world will watch in horror as your country is obliterated by strife. The rest of the world will not intervene because they have been victims of your exploitation. They will welcome the annihilation of such selfish people."

“The United States must change immediately and become the teachers of goodness and generosity to the rest of the world."

"Today the United States is the primary merchant of war and the culture of violence that you export to the world. This will come to an end because you have the seeds of your own destruction within you. Either you will destroy yourselves or God will bring it to an end if there isn't a change."

Storm's light being friends told him more about the future world to come: “According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events.”

Storm asks his angel friends the "money" question: I asked my friend, and his friends, about death - what happens when we die? They said that when a LOVING person dies, angels come down to meet him, and they take him up - gradually, at first, because it would be unbearable for that person to be instantly exposed to God.

I guess those new to Heaven first need time for the angels to apply some "Son Screen!" And notice who goes to heaven - those with faith in Christ? Nope! Those that are "LOVING" persons.

In fact, the angels tell Storm they are essentially calling the shots: “WE see what is necessary for our introduction into the spirit world, and those things are real, in the heavenly, the divine sense.”

Storm says, “They (the Angels and NOT God) gradually educate us as spirit beings, and bring us into heaven."

We grow and increase, and grow and increase, and shed the concerns, desires, and base animal stuff that we have been fighting much of our life. Earthly appetites melt away. It is no longer a struggle to fight them. We become who we truly are, which is part of the divine.”

Wow, so we become PART of God – and who are those this happens to? Those with faith in Christ?

Storm: “This happens to LOVING PEOPLE who are good and love God." So those saved must be "loving" and "good," but, strangely, no mention of faith in Jesus!

Storm emphasizes: “I never saw God, and I was not in heaven. It was way out in the suburbs, and these are the things that they showed me.”

The angels don't speak of GOD'S expectations of His children, but of THEIR own: “My friends then said, "Do you think that we expect you to be perfect, after all the love we feel for you.” And, “They assured me that mistakes are an acceptable part of being human. "Go," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want (so, essentially, sin all you want as long as it seems okay to a person?). Mistakes are how you learn." As long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path.”

And, “The important things is to try one's best, keep one's standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people's approval.” Hey, good works are BACK!

"But," I said, "mistakes make me feel bad. Whose forgiveness are we to seek?"

Notice the angels' focus on who forgiveness comes from:

“They said, "We love you the way you are, mistakes and all. And you can feel OUR forgiveness. You can feel OUR love any time you want to."”

Whose guidance are we to seek?

"Just turn inward," they said. "Just ask for OUR love and WE'll give it to you if you ask from the heart."

And, the angels said, “that if I made a mistake, I should then ask for forgiveness. After that, it would be an insult to THEM if I didn't accept the forgiveness.”

So the ANGELS are responsible for forgiveness and rejecting THEIR forgiveness (like they are the ones who actually can provide it) insults THEM?

And then, the angels have this gem: "But," I (Storm) said, "how will I know what is the right choice? How will I know what YOU want me to do?" They replied, "WE want you to do what YOU want to do. That means making choices and there isn't necessarily any right choice. There are a spectrum of possibilities, and you should make the best choice you can from those possibilities. If you do that, WE will be there helping you."

So we're to do what we want, as there “isn't necessarily any right choice?” And WHO will be helping Storm? God? Nooooooooooooooooo!

Whom do the angels insist will be watching out for Storm once he was sent back? God?

They said, "Any time you need US WE'll be there for you."

“They said, "No, no. WE'RE not going to intervene in your life in any big way unless you need US. We're just going to be there and you'll feel OUR presence, you'll feel OUR love."

So, we can see that Howard Storm's experience doesn't come close to matching up with Scripture: God isn't considered to be Jesus, Who is barely mentioned. Actually, God is only barely referenced. It's all about the supposed angelic beings! The focus of his experience was the guidance, will and power of the angels. And so, it is obvious that either his experience was bogus or a deception. So, if one can't deceive or be deceived by false religions, they can do so by co-opting and horribly distorting what the Bible actually says. And just like Muhammad and Joseph Smith, become deceived by some demonic (or imagined or concocted) EXPERIENCE that no one else saw or could validate the truth of or the actual reality lying behind the likely deception.

Lastly, a perceptive reviewer on Amazon cherry picked a few observations from Storm's book - pay particular attention to his last sentence:

"A nice guy tricked by NDE beings"
ByJack Berton January 25, 2011

The author Howard Storm states on page 128:
"God creates variety in everything he does, and we will ultimately find the same God, the same Christ, the same truth in all religions." This is classic universalism and a head-in-the-sand denial of the written, historical, and present day differences of various religions.

He claims on page 128 "The differences between religious beliefs are man-made" thus he is saying that all written scriptures are so inaccurate that you can not believe them.

From page 40 on shows himself to be some sort of end times new ager with return to nature life style as the ultimate goal of God on page 45. Overall it reads like a political diatribe of left wing views attached to an NDE.

It is believable that the NDE happened to him. If you've read some of the NDE literature you recognize him as someone who got to the other side and was not knowledgeable enough to discern which beings were good and evil or between those telling him truth and lies. I don't doubt his sincerity and I do appreciate his kind tone throughout the book.

The problem with all the NDE experiences is that if you haven't found the truth about God while living you might also be fooled "on the other side of life" by the NDE experience.

If you like this kind of book try: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion, by B.W. Melvin and anything by authors Maurice Rawlings or Howard Pittman. Do a Google search and you will find them on Amazon.

Nice catch Philip. I didn't know all this about Howard , I'll have to rethink that one .
I stand corrected

Thing about Storm's testimony that struck me was that he appeared to me to be still inside a cube/cell and never left that area until he was resuscitated back to life. I have kept this largely to myself and told only a few people my opinion on Storm's experience.

The reason' I thought so, were expressed by Philip in his above long post. The all roads lead to heaven idea from Storm was biggest the give-away. The deceptions of the demonic realm know no bounds in order to deceive and kept folks enslaved to pride (Job 41:34). There will be deceptive miracles/signs from the demonic side as the bible indicates. I call this, God's way to uncover the sons and daughters of pride to either bring folks to salvation through Jesus or sealed to the pride that will doom, As well as to wake people up that their own Afterdeath is longer than this current mortal life.

The difference between mine and some of these others is this, I was not on Oprah, nor will I be invited because when I returned I came back with this knowledge: "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me," John 14:6 NKJV

That was drilled into me and I cannot explain it. So my experience is not the popular one that brings a sigh of relief to the anything-goes-and-everything-is-alright-just-go-to the-light crowd. What Jesus said about himself is true and about the devil being the father of lies, who seeks to murder, rob, and bring to ruin is true. The darkness within people is great and that darkness will keep a person cast away from God forever. That darkness is cemented by pride and pride loves to make everything look all rosey-cozy and does whatever to absolve one from the guilt and consequences of pride.

I recall how many folks were first deceived upon entering the prison pit (current Hell) into thinking they arrived in paradise but a bit later discovered the lie when their own true nature was exposed receiving in just degrees all the betrayal, abandonment, rejection, plotting, scheming, relationships murdered, inner greed, beatings, mocking, crucifying, put of trial, stealing hearts/prestige/items, smugishness, etc and etc lived out in this life that feeds and used justify escapism from the consequences of one's selfish pride. Such darkness blinds a person to what they really do to friends, family, strangers, self, and God. Whatever good they do they pridefully reason will cover all their personal inconsistencies.

Funny how folks do this and demand that God be as inconsistent as they themselves are so they can waltz into heaven and make that Holy place into a domain as profane as this earth bound existence is. God will not let this happen (AMEN) so a place of eternal incarceration was made to place those bound to their king of pride. I see this darkness in folks as I was once in that very darkness myself. It is only by God's grace absolutely undeserved that I and any Christian is even here now. My experience with death drilled that into me and is the most often reason why I'll not be on the major popular Oprah like news talk shows.

Now a breif message to Audie

Audie, I and others presented the Gospel to you. You admitted to your own dysfunction in that you are not perfect. I wrote on this forum the message of the cross and how it exposes who and what we are really like to each other and God.

I left that presentation so as to grant you time to ponder your own dysfunction. Over and over again, you demand proof of God proving himself to you. He has. Look in a mirror, you exist. Why? Just to die into the oblivion of nothingness? You know your own dysfunctional behavior and how it messes with your life. You, like I once was, so comfortable in it that we do whatever to class it as normal and put God on personal Trail in our own minds to prove God is not the one normal, or can't exist so we can escape... Escape what? Death? No we cannot escape that. The empirical evidence those that died 1000 years ago have been dead more years than they lived on this earth faces all of us. You cannot escape that.

You think you can escape consequences of dysfunction by hiding behind smugness, intellectualism, and a martyr complex? No. You don't have to believe me, or what happened to me, nor does anyone as you and they all have that right. This principle that Jesus spoke of is true: "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" Luke 16:31 NKJV

All I can plead is for you to come to Jesus Christ as John 3:14-21 says as I prefer to see you in Heaven changed, cleansed, pure rather than how you currently are, dysfunctional - not perfect, proud...smug.

I guess any one reading will see why I will not grace the major talk shows as I-am-in-your-face-with-Jesus'-call-to-salvation kinda pf person. I do not hide it, nor do I water it down as that is not effective. You see, real agape love is not afraid to slap a person in order to save his or her life from destruction. Neither is God.

My prayer for you Audie and others is for you all to just surrender and become born again and one begins here: Luke 18:13 by John 3:16... It is simple, so take the challenge with your open mind and see if The Lord of Glory will not prove himself real to you now.

Blessings
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However intentioned, BW, your post is not addressed to me, but to some person you choose to believe exists
outside your mind.