Evidence for God from Science

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote: I will say this tho: the claim so often made about how Christianity / becoming a Christian has this wonderfully transformative ennobling effect on people-
Nah.

I think he means this claim Audie.

Its not a claim or an assertion. "Nah" is an expression of my opinion / observation.

I dont doubt that some are transformed, by whatever.

If some of the nominal Christians I've run across have been transformed for the better, I hate to think what they were before.

If a claim is made that "becoming a Christian always transforms people in profound positive ways" then Im pretty sure you'd agree with me, Nah.

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote: I will say this tho: the claim so often made about how Christianity / becoming a Christian has this wonderfully transformative ennobling effect on people-
Nah.

I think he means this claim Audie.

Its not a claim or an assertion. "Nah" is an expression of my opinion / observation.

I dont doubt that some are transformed, by whatever.

If some of the nominal Christians I've run across have been transformed for the better, I hate to think what they were before.

If a claim is made that "becoming a Christian always transforms people in profound positive ways" then Im pretty sure you'd agree with me, Nah.

You said nah, that becoming a Christian doesn't have a transforming effect on people. And I asked how you were qualified to assert that becoming a Christian, doesn't have a transforming effect.

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote: I will say this tho: the claim so often made about how Christianity / becoming a Christian has this wonderfully transformative ennobling effect on people-
Nah.

I think he means this claim Audie.

Its not a claim or an assertion. "Nah" is an expression of my opinion / observation.

I dont doubt that some are transformed, by whatever.

If some of the nominal Christians I've run across have been transformed for the better, I hate to think what they were before.

If a claim is made that "becoming a Christian always transforms people in profound positive ways" then Im pretty sure you'd agree with me, Nah.

You said nah, that becoming a Christian doesn't have a transforming effect on people. And I asked how you were qualified to assert that becoming a Christian, doesn't have a transforming effect.

Does it always?

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote: I will say this tho: the claim so often made about how Christianity / becoming a Christian has this wonderfully transformative ennobling effect on people-
Nah.

I think he means this claim Audie.

Its not a claim or an assertion. "Nah" is an expression of my opinion / observation.

I dont doubt that some are transformed, by whatever.

If some of the nominal Christians I've run across have been transformed for the better, I hate to think what they were before.

If a claim is made that "becoming a Christian always transforms people in profound positive ways" then Im pretty sure you'd agree with me, Nah.

You said nah, that becoming a Christian doesn't have a transforming effect on people. And I asked how you were qualified to assert that becoming a Christian, doesn't have a transforming effect.

Does it always?

So, you're backtracking on what you actually said, and saying you mean something else?

Anyone who becomes a Christian(trusts in Christ for salvation) is transformed by the Holy Spirit. It may not be evident to you or others, that someone is transformed.

Or maybe you are talking about people who claim to be Christian, but really aren't? A lot of people claim to be Christian because they go to church, or believe in God, or are a "good" person, etc.

No, its not "backtracking". I could have, obviously for
YOU, should have, put in the word "always". Why do you choose to think that clarifying is "backtracking"?

I do complain about the frequent 'atheists this" and, "atheists that" statements that seem intended to include all atheists. You dont but then, you are you.

The basis for your assertion about who is or is not a True Scotsman, ah, "Christian"?

Audie wrote:No, its not "backtracking". I could have, obviously for
YOU, should have, put in the word "always". Why do you choose to think that clarifying is "backtracking"?

I do complain about the frequent 'atheists this" and, "atheists that" statements that seem intended to include all atheists. You dont but then, you are you.

The basis for your assertion about who is or is not a True Scotsman, ah, "Christian"?

Ok, clarifying. I apologize.

There are things that are true about all atheists. You would agree with that, correct?

There are things that are true about all believers. One such thing is that ALL believers, without exception have been transformed from one who is dead in his sin, to one who is alive in Christ. Transformed from one who is on the path to hell, to one who has eternal life.

What I think you are talking about, and correct me if I'm wrong, is those who profess to be Christian(whether they are or not), who don't seem to be any different(better acting) than they were before they were Christian. Or professing Christians who don't act any better than non Christians. Which, if I'm reading you correctly, leads you to think that there's no transformation.

Is that accurate?

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

Audie wrote: I will say this tho: the claim so often made about how Christianity / becoming a Christian has this wonderfully transformative ennobling effect on people-
Nah.

I think he means this claim Audie.

Its not a claim or an assertion. "Nah" is an expression of my opinion / observation.

I dont doubt that some are transformed, by whatever.

If some of the nominal Christians I've run across have been transformed for the better, I hate to think what they were before.

If a claim is made that "becoming a Christian always transforms people in profound positive ways" then Im pretty sure you'd agree with me, Nah.

Becoming a Christian and truly accepting Christ will have an effect, for some its instant, some take longer but it does happen. Thats what the Holy Spirit does.
So yes becoming a Christian always transforms you.
Who are we to judge how profound that change is?

Sure there are some people who display non Christian traits but the fault lies with them, not Christianity itself.

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:No, its not "backtracking". I could have, obviously for
YOU, should have, put in the word "always". Why do you choose to think that clarifying is "backtracking"?

I do complain about the frequent 'atheists this" and, "atheists that" statements that seem intended to include all atheists. You dont but then, you are you.

The basis for your assertion about who is or is not a True Scotsman, ah, "Christian"?

Ok, clarifying. I apologize.

There are things that are true about all atheists. You would agree with that, correct?

There are things that are true about all believers. One such thing is that ALL believers, without exception have been transformed from one who is dead in his sin, to one who is alive in Christ. Transformed from one who is on the path to hell, to one who has eternal life.

What I think you are talking about, and correct me if I'm wrong, is those who profess to be Christian(whether they are or not), who don't seem to be any different(better acting) than they were before they were Christian. Or professing Christians who don't act any better than non Christians. Which, if I'm reading you correctly, leads you to think that there's no transformation.

Is that accurate?

good enough, allowing for the possibility of the true scotsman thing

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:No, its not "backtracking". I could have, obviously for
YOU, should have, put in the word "always". Why do you choose to think that clarifying is "backtracking"?

I do complain about the frequent 'atheists this" and, "atheists that" statements that seem intended to include all atheists. You dont but then, you are you.

The basis for your assertion about who is or is not a True Scotsman, ah, "Christian"?

Ok, clarifying. I apologize.

There are things that are true about all atheists. You would agree with that, correct?

There are things that are true about all believers. One such thing is that ALL believers, without exception have been transformed from one who is dead in his sin, to one who is alive in Christ. Transformed from one who is on the path to hell, to one who has eternal life.

What I think you are talking about, and correct me if I'm wrong, is those who profess to be Christian(whether they are or not), who don't seem to be any different(better acting) than they were before they were Christian. Or professing Christians who don't act any better than non Christians. Which, if I'm reading you correctly, leads you to think that there's no transformation.

Is that accurate?

good enough, allowing for the possibility of the true scotsman thing

I'm not one to make the argument that no true Christian would do x. I believe Christians do all sorts of horrible things.
Getting to the point, I don't believe Christians will automatically show fruit, or show a transformation, as you put it. I think Christians who continue trusting in Christ, will grow and there will be fruit. But that doesn't mean all Christians will necessarily show good fruit. But Christians who don't continue trusting Christ, may not produce fruit. For example, there are Christians who live according to the flesh, who probably won't appear to have changed at all. Many of us have gone through periods like this.
This is how I see being a Christian(while on earth) in a nutshell:
1) trust Christ for salvation(become a believer)
2a) continue trusting Christ (grow as a believer)

2b) don't continue trusting in Christ, living more for the things of this world(don't grow in Christ like one should, and don't show fruit like one is supposed to)
The way God intended is 2a. But sometimes we fall into 2b.
That doesn't mean we're not still a believer, it just means we aren't living as God intended us to live as a believer.

It's kinda simplified, but that's the basic idea.

It seems like you're seeing quite a bit of 2b. But, like I said before, I don't discount the possibility that some who profess to be Christians, aren't really Christians.

So in what way would you see a qualitative or quantitative difference between the behaviour of the Christians and the non Christians who seek to live a good and moral live

Audie wrote:So in what way would you see a qualitative or quantitative difference between the behaviour of the Christians and the non Christians who seek to live a good and moral live

I can't really answer that with a simple answer. There's such a range involved. Everybody is different.

But I will say that I've known many non Christians who live a much more "moral" life, than many Christians I know.

I guess if a Christian is trusting in Christ as he should, and growing as a believer, the love for God and his neighbor will show through. Whereas in general with non believers trying to live a moral life, they may seem to do all the right things, but there's no love behind it all. Just a sense of duty.

That's a good question though. I never really have been asked that. You get a star sticker on your forehead.

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:So in what way would you see a qualitative or quantitative difference between the behaviour of the Christians and the non Christians who seek to live a good and moral live

I can't really answer that with a simple answer. There's such a range involved. Everybody is different.

But I will say that I've known many non Christians who live a much more "moral" life, than many Christians I know.

I guess if a Christian is trusting in Christ as he should, and growing as a believer, the love for God and his neighbor will show through. Whereas in general with non believers trying to live a moral life, they may seem to do all the right things, but there's no love behind it all. Just a sense of duty.

That's a good question though. I never really have been asked that. You get a star sticker on your forehead.

Oh dear. Why would you say such things?

I dont see that there is necessarily a difference in behaviour, just belief.

As for non believers not having love behind it all but a sense of duty. I totally dsagree Rick. There can be plenty of love, just not God.

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:So in what way would you see a qualitative or quantitative difference between the behaviour of the Christians and the non Christians who seek to live a good and moral live

I can't really answer that with a simple answer. There's such a range involved. Everybody is different.

But I will say that I've known many non Christians who live a much more "moral" life, than many Christians I know.

I guess if a Christian is trusting in Christ as he should, and growing as a believer, the love for God and his neighbor will show through. Whereas in general with non believers trying to live a moral life, they may seem to do all the right things, but there's no love behind it all. Just a sense of duty.

That's a good question though. I never really have been asked that. You get a star sticker on your forehead.

Oh dear. Why would you say such things?

Let me back track clarify.
It came out differently than I meant it to.

I didn't mean unbelievers don't/can't love their neighbor.

And I know plenty of Christians who only do good because they feel they have to. Without love.

So to CLARIFY, I really see no difference when it comes to what the behavior looks like, when people are doing good.

I can think of two ways I was profoundly positively transformed when I first became a Christian, as quite a young person. In each case I suddenly wanted to do the right thing when I hadn't really before - in one case I think I'd been telling myself that the wrong I was doing was actually the right thing. This behaviour specifically was being mean to my younger brother. I'm really not sure how I (and my brother) would have ended up if I hadn't become a Christian and, I believe, received his Holy Spirit who helped me want to do right.