Evidence for God from Science

Starhunter wrote

Paul, the disciples, and the early Church right up until 400 AD kept the Sabbath, not Sunday, which became official on the pain of economic sanction, torture and death by the Catholic church. The true Christian church went underground for over a thousand years, and still kept the Sabbath. It was the survival of the true Sabbath through the entire dark ages that allowed the Methodists (ES insert) to pick up on it, and from there it was accepted by people from all denominations, accumulating and growing in the SDA church

Philip wrote:There are only so many New Testament Scriptural references that impact what is correct practice concerning A or THE Sabbath - which have been referenced and established by the links posted in this thread. I can almost guarantee that if it takes an entire book to persuade concerning this subject, then its almost certainly mostly made up of human rhetoric and someone or some group's traditions. I'll take Scripture's teachings - those inclined toward legalism can read entire books about it! And the referenced book is written by an Adventist (small shock there) - one who most definitely buys into Ellen White as being a latter day prophet - of which she gave no typical Scriptural signs of being. Take it with a huge grain of salt!

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Gotta say Starhunter, the more i dig the more confused I get. I have always thought and felt the bible verses i have produced were the link to Sundays being the day of rest for Christians. it obviously is today, but perhaps not for the reasons i thought... here's something i came across that has some well trusted names in both the Catholic and Protestant faiths demonstrating the lack of Sunday's (first day) religiosity...

http://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/fuseac ... -Sunday.ht

And although there are conflicting views on "The Sabbath" there is, IMO no basis for this from you ...

Starhunter wrote

Paul, the disciples, and the early Church right up until 400 AD kept the Sabbath, not Sunday, which became official on the pain of economic sanction, torture and death by the Catholic church. The true Christian church went underground for over a thousand years, and still kept the Sabbath. It was the survival of the true Sabbath through the entire dark ages that allowed the Methodists (ES insert) to pick up on it, and from there it was accepted by people from all denominations, accumulating and growing in the SDA church

I have looked pretty extensively and can find nothing that supports these claims ... If you can, forward them here and we'll talk more...

i do believe that the reasons Christians were more apt to serve on Sunday was the eschewing of the Jewish mantle and law and ... here...

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/T ... f-The-Week

gives ample reasons for them to believe so.... so many good and great things happened so early in our church... long long long before the dark ages, Methodism and anywhere near 1000 years of underground Christian faith practices because of economic sanctions and torture....

EssentialSacrifice wrote:I understand now Starhunter. I have been asking for references to your information for some time now and now that you have supplied all has become clearer. We have very little left to say. Your submission to independent references and desire to see things as you, and not necessarily as they are or were is impossible for me to accept or debate. I have learned my lesson (as you said john) and will nor entreat your conversation for both our sakes... I do think you love God and we should just leave it at that, a topic we can agree upon.

I'm able to sleep a little better now, knowing that's not the case

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

I'm able to sleep a little better now, knowing that's not the case

You should still probably sleep with one eye open tho... still a bunch of us Friday fish-eaten folks out there

EssentialSacrifice wrote: I'm able to sleep a little better now, knowing that's not the case

You should still probably sleep with one eye open tho... still a bunch of us Friday fish-eaten folks out there

Don't remind me...I grew up in the most Catholic state in the U.S. Every Friday during Lent, I was surrounded by fish eating fanatics.

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Mallz wrote:I think you need to read Hebrews again SH. I appreciate if you don't want to continue this, though, as long as you're not pushing your views as dogma.. Personally, I see you as worshiping Elohim how you like to worship Him. And that's fine as seen on Romans 14:5-6. I still see you trapping yourself though. Why are you trapping yourself into a law that is obsolete? And not the New Covenant Jesus gave us? That's what I'm confused about, but if it's your preference, then that's OK! But you can't teach that you must worship on a specific day a week. Because it sets up stumbling blocks for believers and those that would come to Christ. It's injecting the law into grace. It's hypocritical, know what I mean? (Not saying your a hypocrite, but I am saying that's the logical conclusion to.. two of your adopted views? when held up to the teachings of Jesus)


Hebrews 8:

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Hebrew consistently goes over how the old testament is obsolete, fulfilled, no longer applicable and for good reason, there is a new covenant from Jesus Christ. So the ten commandments, all those OT laws are fulfilled in our mediator and High Priest Jesus Christ who gave us a covenant of Grace. Why would He make us follow a law He and we know we could never fulfill unto righteousness? Jesus is our law now, our only path to righteousness (not the OT law). He is the mediator and the definer of the law. Think of all the reasons the OT laws exist including the ten commandments. They are fulfilled and obsolete because they have been replaced with better and more inclusive commandments. Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Hebrew consistently goes over how the old testament is obsolete, fulfilled, no longer applicable and for good reason, there is a new covenant from Jesus Christ. So the ten commandments, all those OT laws are fulfilled in our mediator and High Priest Jesus Christ who gave us a covenant of Grace. Why would He make us follow a law He and we know we could never fulfill unto righteousness? Jesus is our law now, our only path to righteousness (not the OT law). He is the mediator and the definer of the law. Think of all the reasons the OT laws exist including the ten commandments. They are fulfilled and obsolete because they have been replaced with better and more inclusive commandments. Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rick: I keep telling 1over137 that we need a standing ovation smilie.