jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:RickD wrote:jenna wrote:
no, we are not saved by works, but by grace. that is true. HOWEVER, God is not going to give that gift to those who do not obey Him. The young ruler was actually not keeping all the commandments, since he put the love of his things above the love of God. in essence, he idolized them first. Christ wanted him to put aside worldly things, and focus on obeying God. Many things make it nearly impossible to keep the commandments, our sinful nature being first and foremost. However, if we can focus on God and put our faith in Him totally, we can receive the gift He has for us. While we may slip up occasionally, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens us".
Jenna,
I'm not sure how you cannot see the contradiction in what you're saying. On one hand, you said that we're saved by obeying the commandments. And on the other hand you say we are saved by grace. It can't be both. By definition, Grace is unmerited. If we obtain salvation by following the law, then it wouldn't be by grace.
Which one is it? Unmerited grace, or wages earned by works?
think of it this way. just say you had 2 children. they are in college, and you told them both they would receive a gift when they finished their courses. But one of them did not finish, would you still give him the gift? No, because he did not do his part in order to receive it! God is the same. He gives a free gift, but there are qualifiers in order to receive it. He will not give it to those who do not obey Him! why can you not see what I am saying?
![Tired y(:|](./images/smilies/yahoo/31.gif)
I can see what you're saying, but you are wrong. A gift, by definition, is unearned. Do you know what grace means? Again, if salvation is by grace, then it cannot be earned.
ok, lets put it this way then. just say your parents want you to come to visit them. they say they have a gift for you when you get there. did you do anything to earn this gift? no. but in order for you to receive it, you must come and get it. you can choose not to go, or go and receive it. does going earn you that gift? Nope, but there are still conditions you must meet in order to get it.
I agree with the coming to Christ thing, to receive the forgiveness Christ offers (e.g., prodigal son). But, the obeying you previously mention is adding something more, something which the OT illustrates over and over again, our own world and own lives demonstrate over and over again, just ends up like filthy rags before God who is perfectly entirely thoroughly completely ALL-righteous and ALL-good.
It's not that we shouldn't do what is right and good, it's just that our being saved from eternal death due to our sinning is no it no longer relevant to being saved from God's righteous judgement. The eternal life offered by Christ in God's kingdom is never a matter of be good or else you're going to get it! If our goodness is ever a condition either before or after we come to Christ, then there's no good news, no hope, just condemnation we all justly deserve.
Thankfully, God's righteousness isn't only based upon fairness and justice with what we do, but can also be given to us via Christ (at least, so we hope and believe as has been passed onto us).