Evidence for God from Science

I hope DB realizes that his view of LS is different that what MacArthur, Comfort or Washer preach about it.

RickD wrote:
1)When you say that if someone "puts" their trust in Christ, does "puts" have to be an ongoing thing? Or do you mean, that once someone trusts Christ once, he is saved?

DBowling wrote:
Yes... that is my position and the position of LS

Which one?

A) When you say that if someone "puts" their trust in Christ, does "puts" have to be an ongoing thing?

Or

B) Or do you mean, that once someone trusts Christ once, he is saved?

SoCalExile wrote:I hope DB realizes that his view of LS is different that what MacArthur, Comfort or Washer preach about it.

I'm honestly getting the impression that Mr. Bowling doesn't really hold to LS. It's more like a Free Grace/Lordship Salvation hybrid.

RickD wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:I hope DB realizes that his view of LS is different that what MacArthur, Comfort or Washer preach about it.

I'm honestly getting the impression that Mr. Bowling doesn't really hold to LS. It's more like a Free Grace/Lordship Salvation hybrid.

I think it's more of a "back-door" LS, rather than the "front-door" LS of MacArthur, Comfort, and Washer.

Although he still believes in the redefined concept of "faith" that all LS preachers do.

ETA: "back-door" are the fruit-inspectors who demand a payment (i.e. "evidence") to the 'loan of God's grace'. "Front-Door" demand a down-payment in the form of works, like "turning from sin", "living a life of holiness", "obeying the commandments" etc etc.

BTW Rick and Paul, How would you rate this guy on the LS Scale? He's very popular in premil eschatology circles:

SoCalExile wrote:BTW Rick and Paul, How would you rate this guy on the LS Scale? He's very popular in premil eschatology circles:

I watched about half the video. That was enough for me to see that he's a full blown LS adherent.

I will say one positive thing about the video. He puts an emphasis on discipleship. That's good.

DBowling,

I just want to bring up a couple of things from this link that you said is a good representation of LS.

The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners,...

I underlined repentant, to make the point that LS teaches that eternal life and forgiveness are only for repentant sinners.

And the LS meaning of repentance, is here.

Another principal theological dictionary defines repentance as:

radical conversion, a transformation of nature, a definitive turning from evil, a resolute turning to God in total obedience (Mk. 1:15 ; Mt. 4:17 ; 18:3).... This conversion is once-for-all. There can be no going back, only advance in responsible movement along the way now taken. It affects the whole man, first and basically the centre of personal life, then logically his conduct at all times and in all situations, his thoughts, words and acts ( Mt. 12:33 ff. par.; 23:26 ; Mk. 7:15 par.). The whole proclamation of Jesus ... is a proclamation of unconditional turning to God, of unconditional turning from all that is against God, not merely that which is downright evil, but that which in a given case makes total turning to God impossible....It is addressed to all without distinction and presented with unmitigated severity in order to indicate the only way of salvation there is. It calls for total surrender, total commitment to the will of God. ... It embraces the whole walk of the new man who is claimed by the divine lordship. It carries with it the founding of a new personal relation of man to God.... It awakens joyous obedience for a life according to God's will. (Kittel, TDNT, 4:1002-3)

Look specifically at the part I underlined in the quote. The only way of salvation "calls for total surrender, total commitment to the will of God". THAT is the "Lordship" in Lordship Salvation. It changes the means through which we apply God's grace for salvation(faith in Christ), to making God the complete Lord of our life, as the means through which God's grace is applied for salvation.
Simply a gospel of works, and effort to try to achieve something God has already achieved.

Let's compare that again with saved by grace, through faith in Christ. Actually, it's a complete contrast. The LS "gospel" is nobody is saved, who hasn't completely surrendered, and made a total commitment to God. I don't know about you all, but that's impossible for me. I'm weak. I can't even commit to going a single day without sinning. Nevermind making a total commitment to the will of God. I'm like a walking civil war. My spirit wants to do God's will. But my flesh is constantly fighting against the things of the spirit.

I think the best I can do is continue to trust in Christ, and not be burdened with the impossible task of total commitment to God as a requirement for eternal life. If my salvation rests upon anything I do, including my total commitment, I might as well throw in the towel now. I can't do it.

SoCalExile wrote:I hope DB realizes that his view of LS is different that what MacArthur, Comfort or Washer preach about it.

Wellllll... since I'm not a follower of MacArthur, Comfort, or Washer...
That really doesn't concern me at all.

I must have been corrupted by all those hours I've spent discussing LS with my dad over the last couple of decades.

But to be fair to MacArthur, his two books (Gospel According to Jesus and Faith Works) have had a significant impact on my personal understanding of LS. But I feel no obligation to embrace everything MacArthur teaches.
As I said before, when MacArthur contradicts Scripture, I will go with Scripture over MacArthur.

I think the Berean model is a good one to follow.

In Christ

RickD wrote:DBowling,

I just want to bring up a couple of things from this link that you said is a good representation of LS.

The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners,...

I underlined repentant, to make the point that LS teaches that eternal life and forgiveness are only for repentant sinners.

I agree with this principle...
Although MacArthur and I might have slightly different definitions of repentance.
I believe repentance is an integral component of trusting in Jesus to save me from my sin.

So since repentance is an integral component of trusting in Jesus to save me from my sin, and since trusting in Jesus is a requirement for salvation and forgiveness, then I would agree that eternal life and forgiveness are only for repentant sinners.

Another principal theological dictionary defines repentance as:

radical conversion, a transformation of nature, a definitive turning from evil, a resolute turning to God in total obedience (Mk. 1:15 ; Mt. 4:17 ; 18:3).... This conversion is once-for-all. There can be no going back, only advance in responsible movement along the way now taken. It affects the whole man, first and basically the centre of personal life, then logically his conduct at all times and in all situations, his thoughts, words and acts ( Mt. 12:33 ff. par.; 23:26 ; Mk. 7:15 par.). The whole proclamation of Jesus ... is a proclamation of unconditional turning to God, of unconditional turning from all that is against God, not merely that which is downright evil, but that which in a given case makes total turning to God impossible....It is addressed to all without distinction and presented with unmitigated severity in order to indicate the only way of salvation there is. It calls for total surrender, total commitment to the will of God. ... It embraces the whole walk of the new man who is claimed by the divine lordship. It carries with it the founding of a new personal relation of man to God.... It awakens joyous obedience for a life according to God's will. (Kittel, TDNT, 4:1002-3)

Look specifically at the part I underlined in the quote. The only way of salvation "calls for total surrender, total commitment to the will of God".

I think that surrender and commitment are elements of trusting in Jesus.

However, I share your reservation regarding the word "total".
Total surrender and total commitment are a lifelong pursuit in the life of a Christian, that we will never 100% attain this side of eternity.

THAT is the "Lordship" in Lordship Salvation.

I disagree.
I think 'Lordship' involves the realization that I am unable to save myself from my sin, and submitting to and trusting in Jesus to do what I am unable to do for myself.

In Christ

RickD wrote:

RickD wrote:
1)When you say that if someone "puts" their trust in Christ, does "puts" have to be an ongoing thing? Or do you mean, that once someone trusts Christ once, he is saved?

DBowling wrote:
Yes... that is my position and the position of LS

Which one?

A) When you say that if someone "puts" their trust in Christ, does "puts" have to be an ongoing thing?

Or

B) Or do you mean, that once someone trusts Christ once, he is saved?

I was referring to B

Ephesians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxxfOEW ... tml5=False

DBowling,

I'm not sure you're really an LS adherent. You seem to have problems with too many of the basics of LS. Either that, or your Dad has had a positive influence on your thinking, and you're starting to see the light.

RickD wrote:DBowling,

I'm not sure you're really an LS adherent. You seem to have problems with too many of the basics of LS. Either that, or your Dad has had a positive influence on your thinking, and you're starting to see the light.

But this goes back to my post (to which you replied most irrelevantly). Those who pay lip-service to OSAS to then say but wait, if you truly believed or if your faith was truly genuine then you necessarily must live a life of discipleship blah blah blah. There are two and only two position (irrespective of whose promise it is, Rick). Either moral assurance or an absolute, once-for-all-no-matter-what assurance regardless of subsequent acts, however vile and evil.

DBowling wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:I hope DB realizes that his view of LS is different that what MacArthur, Comfort or Washer preach about it.

Wellllll... since I'm not a follower of MacArthur, Comfort, or Washer...
That really doesn't concern me at all.

I must have been corrupted by all those hours I've spent discussing LS with my dad over the last couple of decades.

But to be fair to MacArthur, his two books (Gospel According to Jesus and Faith Works) have had a significant impact on my personal understanding of LS. But I feel no obligation to embrace everything MacArthur teaches.
As I said before, when MacArthur contradicts Scripture, I will go with Scripture over MacArthur.

I think the Berean model is a good one to follow.

In Christ

The entire premise of LS contradicts scripture.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:DBowling,

I'm not sure you're really an LS adherent. You seem to have problems with too many of the basics of LS. Either that, or your Dad has had a positive influence on your thinking, and you're starting to see the light.

But this goes back to my post (to which you replied most irrelevantly). Those who pay lip-service to OSAS to then say but wait, if you truly believed or if your faith was truly genuine then you necessarily must live a life of discipleship blah blah blah. There are two and only two position (irrespective of whose promise it is, Rick). Either moral assurance or an absolute, once-for-all-no-matter-what assurance regardless of subsequent acts, however vile and evil.

Problem is, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8,10, Matthew 5:22-23, 5:27-28, and James 2:10. The problem with isn't that we aren't "good enough", it's that we aren't perfect; therefore, trying to act holy on the outside doesn't get anyone into heaven. We've all sinned, and therefore we are all thieves, liars, prostitutes, murderers, etc. Christ's sacrifice overs up our sin to God, it doesn't make us sinless. Thus the LS gospel falls flat, and by it's own rules, no one is saved. It is truly the same mistake Paul attributes to Israel in Romans 10:3, and really is just another scheme to enrich those teaching it by fooling people into thinking they can build their tower and reach heaven by their own work.