Evidence for God from Science

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:Truth be told; I know very little about Alexander the Great. When Napoleon invaded Russia, the details of that war are consistent with what is believed in Russia even today; even with the many wars he had with Britain or other countries; as a matter of fact, the entire world agrees on the details of the wars Napoleon was involved in, as well as the signed documents that resulted from his accomplishments and failures.
The same can’t be said about Jesus; depending on who you ask you will get a totally different story of his death. Ask a Muslim, you get one thing; ask a Jew; another. Ask a Christian; you get something else

Byblos wrote: Actually there's a remarkable concordance among historians on the the historicity of Jesus, and many are non-Christian (if theists at all).

There may be some historians who believe Jesus was a historical figure, but they don't agree he rose from the dead after 3 days. There isn't even an agreement with religious folk; only the Christians believe that claim. Ask a Muslim and they will tell you he never even died, that Allah took him directly to Heaven after the religious leaders of that time conspired against him to have him killed

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote: PS, how exactly do you know those documents bear Napoleon's actual signature?

How do I know those are his actual signatures? I have no actual proof, but I see no reason to assume they are frauds the countries of the entire world are in on.

Byblos wrote: It doesn't have to be a conspiracy, maybe a simple myth perpetuated by the followers of Napoleon and believed by the entire world. You believe that's exactly what happened with Jesus (even though many historians actually disagree with you).

Most of the people who agree on Napoleon were not his followers. In 1812 Russia was invaded. the leader of the enemy forces was Napoleon. What happened during that war is a part of Russia and French history. the same for when he invaded Spain, Britain, and all the other countries he was involved in
The idea of a military leader doing what military leaders do does not take a leap of faith; the idea of a religious leader regularly committing actions outside the laws of nature does. As they say, astronomical claims requires an astronomical amount of evidence

Byblos wrote: Bottom line is you choose to believe one way or the other according to your whims, not according to what history shows or according to some rationally consistent method. It certainly is your prerogative to do so but you can't come here and peddle it as some sort of common sense approach.

Are you seriously trying to make that argument? Are you seriously trying to compare the historical accounts of Jesus with the historical accounts of Napoleon?
Napoleon
Napoleon was a military leader who went to war with a lot of countries. He never did anything outside the laws of nature, all of his success and failures were documented during the event and have been in the archives of those particular countries from the time it happened to current day.

Jesus
Jesus was a religious leader who taught, and was eventually killed. He never wrote anything down, he never instructed his followers to write anything down, then years after his death various people began to write what they could remember of him. Then many, many years later a group of religious leaders (Cannon) came together and voted on which of these ancient writings should be considered authentic and which ones should be dismissed in order to make the Bible.
Why on Earth would you expect a non-religious person to see these historical claims as equal?

Ken

Byblos wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:Truth be told; I know very little about Alexander the Great. When Napoleon invaded Russia, the details of that war are consistent with what is believed in Russia even today; even with the many wars he had with Britain or other countries; as a matter of fact, the entire world agrees on the details of the wars Napoleon was involved in, as well as the signed documents that resulted from his accomplishments and failures.
The same can’t be said about Jesus; depending on who you ask you will get a totally different story of his death. Ask a Muslim, you get one thing; ask a Jew; another. Ask a Christian; you get something else

Byblos wrote: Actually there's a remarkable concordance among historians on the the historicity of Jesus, and many are non-Christian (if theists at all).

There may be some historians who believe Jesus was a historical figure, but they don't agree he rose from the dead after 3 days. There isn't even an agreement with religious folk; only the Christians believe that claim. Ask a Muslim and they will tell you he never even died, that Allah took him directly to Heaven after the religious leaders of that time conspired against him to have him killed

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote: PS, how exactly do you know those documents bear Napoleon's actual signature?

How do I know those are his actual signatures? I have no actual proof, but I see no reason to assume they are frauds the countries of the entire world are in on.

Byblos wrote: It doesn't have to be a conspiracy, maybe a simple myth perpetuated by the followers of Napoleon and believed by the entire world. You believe that's exactly what happened with Jesus (even though many historians actually disagree with you).

Most of the people who agree on Napoleon were not his followers. In 1812 Russia was invaded. the leader of the enemy forces was Napoleon. What happened during that war is a part of Russia and French history. the same for when he invaded Spain, Britain, and all the other countries he was involved in
The idea of a military leader doing what military leaders do does not take a leap of faith; the idea of a religious leader regularly committing actions outside the laws of nature does. As they say, astronomical claims requires an astronomical amount of evidence

Byblos wrote: Bottom line is you choose to believe one way or the other according to your whims, not according to what history shows or according to some rationally consistent method. It certainly is your prerogative to do so but you can't come here and peddle it as some sort of common sense approach.

Are you seriously trying to make that argument? Are you seriously trying to compare the historical accounts of Jesus with the historical accounts of Napoleon?
Napoleon
Napoleon was a military leader who went to war with a lot of countries. He never did anything outside the laws of nature, all of his success and failures were documented during the event and have been in the archives of those particular countries from the time it happened to current day.

Jesus
Jesus was a religious leader who taught, and was eventually killed. He never wrote anything down, he never instructed his followers to write anything down, then years after his death various people began to write what they could remember of him. Then many, many years later a group of religious leaders (Cannon) came together and voted on which of these ancient writings should be considered authentic and which ones should be dismissed in order to make the Bible.
Why on Earth would you expect a non-religious person to see these historical claims as equal?

Ken

I mentioned Napoleon, who is a much more recent historical figure, in passing. You took it and ran with it.

Forget everything I said about Napoleon, replace it with any other supposedly contemporaneous historical figure like Alexander the Great or Julias Cesar, neither of whom wrote anything about themselves. There's just as much, if not more, historical accounts (both biblical - which at a minimum ought to be considered as historical accounts, and extra-biblical) for Jesus. You have no issue considering the accounts of those figures as historical while denying that for Jesus. That's the point I'm making.

PaulSacramento wrote:The historicity of jesus is, quite frankly, disputable only by those that have no clue how historical figures are attested to.
I don't think you even find educated atheist that fall for that silliness anymore.

The historical acceptance that Jesus existed has nothing to do with the claims of His divinity ( other than the fact that he existed and was human and was killed).

The historical account of the resurrection is attested as well as most historical events and is ONLY disputed because, quite simply, it is a supernatural event.

Kurieuo wrote:Kenny, how much of what we have about Jesus do you accept? He existed, taught a message of love, had disciples, was crucified. You'd evidently stop at Christ being God, and as such the resurrection.

Kurieuo wrote:What about healings, do you believe he may have had such a gift, however such might have been had?

Kurieuo wrote:Are you aware to the extra-biblical sources that speak of Christ being a miracle worker, sorcerer?

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Kenny, how much of what we have about Jesus do you accept? He existed, taught a message of love, had disciples, was crucified. You'd evidently stop at Christ being God, and as such the resurrection.

Yes.

Kurieuo wrote:What about healings, do you believe he may have had such a gift, however such might have been had?

No

Kurieuo wrote:Are you aware to the extra-biblical sources that speak of Christ being a miracle worker, sorcerer?

No.

K

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Are you aware to the extra-biblical sources that speak of Christ being a miracle worker, sorcerer?

No.

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Are you aware to the extra-biblical sources that speak of Christ being a miracle worker, sorcerer?

No.

Kenny, if interested to piece together your own beliefs about this person of Jesus, read the extra-biblical sources, etc, then there is a page I came across that I'd like to point you to: Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?

It details the various external non-Biblical sources, so you'll get to read over them and determine for yourself what to make of such. You may not embrace Jesus as God, or the resurrection, but it'll provide you with greater awareness perhaps of certain things to factor in with your beliefs.

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Are you aware to the extra-biblical sources that speak of Christ being a miracle worker, sorcerer?

No.

Kenny, if interested to piece together your own beliefs about this person of Jesus, read the extra-biblical sources, etc, then there is a page I came across that I'd like to point you to: Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?

It details the various external non-Biblical sources, so you'll get to read over them and determine for yourself what to make of such. You may not embrace Jesus as God, or the resurrection, but it'll provide you with greater awareness perhaps of certain things to factor in with your beliefs.

Remember? Atheists don't have beliefs. They only lack beliefs.

Jac3510 wrote:Anyone who doubts the historical veracity of the existence of Jesus or of His death, burial, and post-mortem appearances to His disciples should read Historic Doubts Relative to Napoleon Buonaparte.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:Anyone who doubts the historical veracity of the existence of Jesus or of His death, burial, and post-mortem appearances to His disciples should read Historic Doubts Relative to Napoleon Buonaparte.

People that make silly historical claims like Jesus never existed, should really learn a bit about how history actually works.
But they don't because they are more interested in discrediting a given religion ( or all of them) than actual facts and truths.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:Anyone who doubts the historical veracity of the existence of Jesus or of His death, burial, and post-mortem appearances to His disciples should read Historic Doubts Relative to Napoleon Buonaparte.

People that make silly historical claims like Jesus never existed, should really learn a bit about how history actually works.
But they don't because they are more interested in discrediting a given religion ( or all of them) than actual facts and truths.

Byblos wrote: Exactly. Hence kenny's now famous quote: "Anything but God".

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:Anyone who doubts the historical veracity of the existence of Jesus or of His death, burial, and post-mortem appearances to His disciples should read Historic Doubts Relative to Napoleon Buonaparte.

People that make silly historical claims like Jesus never existed, should really learn a bit about how history actually works.
But they don't because they are more interested in discrediting a given religion ( or all of them) than actual facts and truths.

Exactly. Hence kenny's now famous quote: "Anything but God".