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Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:02 am
by PaulSacramento
Did you just ask me if I can prove that Math exists ??
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:35 am
by Kenny
Justhuman wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Justhuman wrote:Kenny wrote:
So again; where does math exist? Also, who found math, and where was it first found?
Math doesn't exist in neither a fundamental material or immateriual form. Math is knowledge and can only be brought into physical existence by intelligent beings.
When we say math we are speaking of mathematical concepts.
They exist in the same since that anything immaterial exists.
If there were no intelligent beings around, with 2 apples seize to be two apples? with 3 pairs of peaches seize to be 6 peaches?
Of course not.
Using the word 'immaterial' becomes confusing, for which immaterial 'level' is meant?
The 'spiritual immaterial' or the 'conceptual immaterial'? The spiritual immaterial (if it exists) would be real, the conceptual is imaginary. A formula like 1+1=10 is just a formula, it is a mere mathematical fact, nothing more. It doesn't exist in any realm.
Maybe that's the confusing in this. Maybe we mean the same, but are explaining/interpreting things differently?
PaulSacramento wrote: You and Ken seem to be under the impression that things only exist if humans are around to "see" them.
Mathematical concepts were not created, they were discovered.
Again (now don't give up on me now) Where were they discovered?
PaulSacramento wrote: AXB/A+B isn't right because someone created the formula and made it right, it is right because someone discovered that it works.
2x3=6 isn't correct because someone said it was, it is correct because 2 sets of 3 equals 6 pieces in total.
These things would be exactly what they are regardless of there being anyone around to use them.
A 3 side thing would have the essence of triangularity, even if there were no 3 sides things anymore or no humans to observes them.
You two seem to be implying that until humans were able to reason that 1+1 = 2 that, somehow, it didn't.
No; I'm claiming mankind created the system of mathematics that includes answers to the equation like what you presented. Once the system was invented, it can be applied to various situations, but it requires an intelligent mind to apply the system. If mankind didn't exist, nobody would have created the system. If all intelligent beings no longer existed, there would be nobody left to apply the system. The system doesn't have an actual existence, it only exist in an intelligent beings mind.
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:37 am
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote:Did you just ask me if I can prove that Math exists ??
I'm asking you, if math exists somewhere outside of the human mind, where does it exist?
Ken
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:58 am
by Kurieuo
Kenny, your question presupposes a Materialistic Realist view of reality, where everything that exists must exist in a physical construct. "Where does math exist?" can be asked of something physical like an object, but not something non-physical or immaterial like maths.
I came across this video today, which I recommend. Not because I necessarily agree with it all (I don't), but because this rather recent film highlights the discussions science itself has led us to today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0ztlIAYTCU
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 am
by Philip
In fact, science believes there was a moment in which physical reality was born, in which a mere moment before, the building components that make up physical things did not yet exist. This means that the Source of our universe is non-physical/non-material. Unless one believes in pure, uncaused magic - and a universe just "popped" into existence, with extraordinary things like atoms and molecules instantly coming into existence, of which immediately began obeying complex laws. All of those first things had to have a source that existed before anything physical existed. So, materialism cannot explain everything that exists, or has existed.
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:45 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Did you just ask me if I can prove that Math exists ??
I'm asking you, if math exists somewhere outside of the human mind, where does it exist?
Ken
Wow, so according to you, things exist ONLY in the mind?
So, if there were no minds around, 1+1 would NOT equal two ??
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:36 am
by Kenny
Kenny wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Did you just ask me if I can prove that Math exists ??
I'm asking you, if math exists somewhere outside of the human mind, where does it exist?
Ken
PaulSacramento wrote: Wow, so according to you, things exist ONLY in the mind?
No; I'm saying thoughts and ideas exist in the mind. Math is a system that consist of thoughts.
PaulSacramento wrote: So, if there were no minds around, 1+1 would NOT equal two ??
[/quote]
1+1=2 is an equation. This equation is solved using the system of math. If there were no minds around, there would be no system to solve such an equation.
Now that I've answered your questions, would you mind answering mine?
Ken
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:54 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote:Kenny wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Did you just ask me if I can prove that Math exists ??
I'm asking you, if math exists somewhere outside of the human mind, where does it exist?
Ken
PaulSacramento wrote: Wow, so according to you, things exist ONLY in the mind?
No; I'm saying thoughts and ideas exist in the mind. Math is a system that consist of thoughts.
PaulSacramento wrote: So, if there were no minds around, 1+1 would NOT equal two ??
1+1=2 is an equation. This equation is solved using the system of math. If there were no minds around, there would be no system to solve such an equation.
Now that I've answered your questions, would you mind answering mine?
Ken[/quote]
Ken, if there was no one around, would 3 groups of 3 apples = 9 apples?
You haven't answered my question and until you do, your question is not relevant.
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:09 pm
by Kenny
Kenny wrote:Kenny wrote: PaulSacramento wrote:Did you just ask me if I can prove that Math exists ??
I'm asking you, if math exists somewhere outside of the human mind, where does it exist?
Ken
PaulSacramento wrote: Wow, so according to you, things exist ONLY in the mind?
No; I'm saying thoughts and ideas exist in the mind. Math is a system that consist of thoughts.
PaulSacramento wrote: So, if there were no minds around, 1+1 would NOT equal two ??
1+1=2 is an equation. This equation is solved using the system of math. If there were no minds around, there would be no system to solve such an equation.
Kenny wrote: Now that I've answered your questions, would you mind answering mine?
Ken
PaulSacramento wrote: Ken, if there was no one around, would 3 groups of 3 apples = 9 apples?
Using the system of math; of course it would! As I said before, once the system is invented, it works whether an intelligent mind is around to use it or not.
Now that I've answered your question, can you answer mine?
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:13 pm
by Kenny
Kurieuo wrote:Kenny, your question presupposes a Materialistic Realist view of reality, where everything that exists must exist in a physical construct. "Where does math exist?" can be asked of something physical like an object, but not something non-physical or immaterial like maths.
If one believes math exist in the mind, or in your thoughts, such a question can be asked of math.
Ken
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:52 pm
by Kurieuo
Kenny wrote:Kurieuo wrote:Kenny, your question presupposes a Materialistic Realist view of reality, where everything that exists must exist in a physical construct. "Where does math exist?" can be asked of something physical like an object, but not something non-physical or immaterial like maths.
If one believes math exist in the mind, or in your thoughts, such a question can be asked of math.
Careful, lest you fall into accidentally believing the mind isn't material.
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:04 pm
by Kenny
Kurieuo wrote:Kenny wrote:Kurieuo wrote:Kenny, your question presupposes a Materialistic Realist view of reality, where everything that exists must exist in a physical construct. "Where does math exist?" can be asked of something physical like an object, but not something non-physical or immaterial like maths.
If one believes math exist in the mind, or in your thoughts, such a question can be asked of math.
Careful, lest you fall into accidentally believing the mind isn't material.
Thanx for the warning; I'll be careful. What we call the mind is actually the brain when it performs it's thinking function.
K
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:36 am
by PaulSacramento
Using the system of math; of course it would! As I said before, once the system is invented, it works whether an intelligent mind is around to use it or not.
Now that I've answered your question, can you answer mine?
So math was invented?
We invented that 2+2=4 ?
What was 2+2 before we invented math ??
Did we invent gravity equation too by the way?
Dude, you don't seem to understand that until you grasp your error, my response to your question is no relevant.
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:46 am
by Justhuman
PaulSacramento wrote:Justhuman wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:Justhuman wrote:Kenny wrote:
So again; where does math exist? Also, who found math, and where was it first found?
Math doesn't exist in neither a fundamental material or immateriual form. Math is knowledge and can only be brought into physical existence by intelligent beings.
When we say math we are speaking of mathematical concepts.
They exist in the same since that anything immaterial exists.
If there were no intelligent beings around, with 2 apples seize to be two apples? with 3 pairs of peaches seize to be 6 peaches?
Of course not.
Using the word 'immaterial' becomes confusing, for which immaterial 'level' is meant?
The 'spiritual immaterial' or the 'conceptual immaterial'? The spiritual immaterial (if it exists) would be real, the conceptual is imaginary. A formula like 1+1=10 is just a formula, it is a mere mathematical fact, nothing more. It doesn't exist in any realm.
Maybe that's the confusing in this. Maybe we mean the same, but are explaining/interpreting things differently?
You and Ken seem to be under the impression that things only exist if humans are around to "see" them.
Mathematical concepts were not created, they were discovered.
AXB/A+B isn't right because someone created the formula and made it right, it is right because someone discovered that it works.
2x3=6 isn't correct because someone said it was, it is correct because 2 sets of 3 equals 6 pieces in total.
These things would be exactly what they are regardless of there being anyone around to use them.
A 3 side thing would have the essence of triangularity, even if there were no 3 sides things anymore or no humans to observes them.
You two seem to be implying that until humans were able to reason that 1+1 = 2 that, somehow, it didn't.
You two seem to be implying that until humans were able to reason that 1+1 = 2 that, somehow, it didn't.
No. That's why I wrote earlier we actually might mean the same, but interprete eachothers explanations differently. Intellectually unwillingly or subconciously willingly.
Take for example language. Before humans developed their individual language those actual languages didn't exist in their 'physical' state. The conceptual possibilities (for now I can't think of a more better description) of those languages however was (is) already there.
If you, in 10 seconds from reading this post, 'invent' an as yet non-existing word, that word will become 'physical' the moment you actually think of it. Before that the existence of that word existed
only in its
conceptual possibility form.
To describe words and math and the like as immaterial is in my opinion wrong. Ghosts, spirit, soul, God, they are immaterial, and in their sense '
physically real'. Tangible, even in their immaterial form.
Re: Why I am not an Atheist
Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:43 am
by PaulSacramento
No. That's why I wrote earlier we actually might mean the same, but interprete eachothers explanations differently. Intellectually unwillingly or subconciously willingly.
Take for example language. Before humans developed their individual language those actual languages didn't exist in their 'physical' state. The conceptual possibilities (for now I can't think of a more better description) of those languages however was (is) already there.
If you, in 10 seconds from reading this post, 'invent' an as yet non-existing word, that word will become 'physical' the moment you actually think of it. Before that the existence of that word existed only in its conceptual possibility form.
To describe words and math and the like as immaterial is in my opinion wrong. Ghosts, spirit, soul, God, they are immaterial, and in their sense 'physically real'. Tangible, even in their immaterial form.
Language is something to be invented, math ie: the quantitative measure of something, isn't.
Unit of measure sure, but quantitative measure is what it is and will always be what it always is.
Something for a physical property or formula.
We didn't invent of create the equation for gravity, it was discovered.
The distinction is important.
I think you don't like the term immaterial because it has spiritual and metaphysical connotations.
Fine, choose a synonym:
intangible, incorporeal, bodiless, disembodied, impalpable, ethereal, insubstantial.