Evidence for God from Science

Nils wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:27 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:09 pm

Byblos wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:55 am How is information defined and who defines it as such?

I think I have directly addressed the central point in my posts.
a. My operating definition of information is "data with meaningful non-random structure and organization".

Is this your definition?

Actually it comes from your Wikipedia article above...

"information is data in context and with meaning attached"

The Wikipedia article points to the following link to describe the difference between information and data
https://www.diffen.com/difference/Data_vs_Information
"Data - Data is raw, unorganized facts that need to be processed. Data can be something simple and seemingly random and useless until it is organized.
Information - When data is processed, organized, structured or presented in a given context so as to make it useful, it is called information."

Nothing about resolution of uncertainty?

That is a function of meaning, structure, and organization
"The uncertainty of an event is measured by its probability of occurrence and is inversely proportional to that. The more uncertain an event, the more information is required to resolve uncertainty of that event."

That the message has to be understandable for the receiver is obvious which also requires that he/it understands the context.

Information has to be meaningful and understandable by both the sender and the receiver.

b. The only observed causal agent (definer and creator) of information is intelligence.

Is this a definition?

No this is empirical observation.

You post #126 I didn't understand.

For each of your three examples I was demonstrating how...
a string of alphabetical symbols that have "meaningful non-random structure and organization" contain information and are able to resolve uncertainty.
while
a string of characters, that are not meaningful, are random, and do not have structure and organization do not contain information and are unable to resolve uncertainty.

Nils: Don't you understand the evolution theory??

I've only been studying it - probably, longer than you've been alive. Not only are you devoid of observations for what you contend, but evolution isn't even what most needs explaining.

Nils wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:43 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:45 am

Nils wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:51 am Paul and Philip,
random mutations give no information. It is random mutations + natural selection that do the job. You should know.
Same as everyday trial and error. Trial is more and less random. Error is the feed back, a selection mechanism.
Nils

What drives natural selection? how does "nature select" ?

Don't you understand the evolution theory?? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection. If you then have questions I will try to answer.
Nils

Yes, since you know how it works also.
Explain how natural selection came to be?
How does natural selection work? not the results, but the actual process.
How does it decide what is an advantageous trait ??
Does it have intelligence?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:54 am

Nils wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:43 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:45 am

Nils wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:51 am Paul and Philip,
random mutations give no information. It is random mutations + natural selection that do the job. You should know.
Same as everyday trial and error. Trial is more and less random. Error is the feed back, a selection mechanism.
Nils

What drives natural selection? how does "nature select" ?

Don't you understand the evolution theory?? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection. If you then have questions I will try to answer.
Nils

Yes, since you know how it works also.

I don't think I can explain it better than Wikipedia, but OK:

Explain how natural selection came to be?

It's an integral part of life. I don't think that life without natural selection is possible.

How does natural selection work? not the results, but the actual process.

All individuals are threatened losing there lives all the time. Those that survive so long that they get many descendants have the "best"genes and their descendants will inherit them.

How does it decide what is an advantageous trait ??

"Nature" doesn't decide, it just happens! It's part of living. See above. If you and your friend are chased by a lion, the fastest runner will survive.

Does it have intelligence?

Definitely not.

Questions?
Nils

DB, I have some problems with you definition of information:

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am a. My operating definition of information is "data with meaningful non-random structure and organization".

If you take a tale which certainly has meaningful non-random structure and organization. Is this new information? Seems curious to me.

Information has to be meaningful and understandable by both the sender and the receiver.

If you take my example with the full moon or astronomy generally. What does it mean that the information is "meaningful and understandable" to the moon?
Nils

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:22 am DB, I have some problems with you definition of information:

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am a. My operating definition of information is "data with meaningful non-random structure and organization".

If you take a tale which certainly has meaningful non-random structure and organization. Is this new information? Seems curious to me.

If I read the book, Romeo and Juliet, that book is filled with alphabetical characters with meaningful non-random structure and organization.
As the Wikipedia article points out the words, sentences, and paragraphs that make up the story of Romeo and Juliet convey information to the reader of the story.
When Shakespeare first penned the story of Romeo and Juliet he was generating "new information".
Intelligence is required to read and understand Romeo and Juliet.
Intelligence was required to create the story of Romeo and Juliet in the first place.

Information has to be meaningful and understandable by both the sender and the receiver.

If you take my example with the full moon or astronomy generally. What does it mean that the information is "meaningful and understandable" to the moon?

In your example, the moon was neither the sender or receiver of information.
The moon was the object of the information.
In your moon example, you were passing information about the status of the moon between two intelligences, the inquirer and the responder.

From my perspective, astronomy (or the Laws of Nature in general) provide evidence that intelligence was involved in the Big Bang that created our universe.
The Laws of Nature that govern our universe have meaningful non-random structure and organization.
Since intelligence is the only observed causal agent agent of information, that is an indicator that the causal agent for the Big Bang and the Laws of Nature that govern the universe is intelligent.

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am

Information has to be meaningful and understandable by both the sender and the receiver.

If you take my example with the full moon or astronomy generally. What does it mean that the information is "meaningful and understandable" to the moon?

In your example, the moon was neither the sender or receiver of information.
The moon was the object of the information.
In your moon example, you were passing information about the status of the moon between two intelligences, the inquirer and the responder.

But from where did the "inquirer" get the information?
Nils

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:22 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am

Information has to be meaningful and understandable by both the sender and the receiver.

If you take my example with the full moon or astronomy generally. What does it mean that the information is "meaningful and understandable" to the moon?

In your example, the moon was neither the sender or receiver of information.
The moon was the object of the information.
In your moon example, you were passing information about the status of the moon between two intelligences, the inquirer and the responder.

But from where did the "inquirer" get the information?
Nils

The inquirer does not have the information he desires about the status of the moon.
That is why he is asking the responder for information about the status of the moon.

The responder gathers the information and then transmits that information to the inquirer using a structured meaningful code (audible language, written text, etc) that is understood by both the inquirer and the responder.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:22 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am

Information has to be meaningful and understandable by both the sender and the receiver.

If you take my example with the full moon or astronomy generally. What does it mean that the information is "meaningful and understandable" to the moon?

In your example, the moon was neither the sender or receiver of information.
The moon was the object of the information.
In your moon example, you were passing information about the status of the moon between two intelligences, the inquirer and the responder.

But from where did the "inquirer" get the information?
Nils

The inquirer does not have the information he desires about the status of the moon.
That is why he is asking the responder for information about the status of the moon.

The responder gathers the information and then transmits that information to the inquirer using a structured meaningful code (audible language, written text, etc) that is understood by both the inquirer and the responder.

OK, I should have asked about the responder. From where does he get the information?
Nils

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:10 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:22 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am

If you take my example with the full moon or astronomy generally. What does it mean that the information is "meaningful and understandable" to the moon?

In your example, the moon was neither the sender or receiver of information.
The moon was the object of the information.
In your moon example, you were passing information about the status of the moon between two intelligences, the inquirer and the responder.

But from where did the "inquirer" get the information?
Nils

The inquirer does not have the information he desires about the status of the moon.
That is why he is asking the responder for information about the status of the moon.

The responder gathers the information and then transmits that information to the inquirer using a structured meaningful code (audible language, written text, etc) that is understood by both the inquirer and the responder.

OK, I should have asked about the responder. From where does he get the information?
Nils

The responder gathers data about the status of the moon and then organizes that data into structured meaningful code that is transmitted to the inquirer.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:18 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:10 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:22 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:16 am

In your example, the moon was neither the sender or receiver of information.
The moon was the object of the information.
In your moon example, you were passing information about the status of the moon between two intelligences, the inquirer and the responder.

But from where did the "inquirer" get the information?
Nils

The inquirer does not have the information he desires about the status of the moon.
That is why he is asking the responder for information about the status of the moon.

The responder gathers the information and then transmits that information to the inquirer using a structured meaningful code (audible language, written text, etc) that is understood by both the inquirer and the responder.

OK, I should have asked about the responder. From where does he get the information?
Nils

The responder gathers data about the status of the moon and then organizes that data into structured meaningful code that is transmitted to the inquirer.

What do you say about this quotation from Wikipedia /Information?
"The colored light reflected from a flower is too weak to do much photosynthetic work but the visual system of the bee detects it and the bee's nervous system uses the information to guide the bee to the flower, where the bee often finds nectar or pollen, which are causal inputs, serving a nutritional function. "
Nils

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:34 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:18 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:10 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:22 am
But from where did the "inquirer" get the information?
Nils

The inquirer does not have the information he desires about the status of the moon.
That is why he is asking the responder for information about the status of the moon.

The responder gathers the information and then transmits that information to the inquirer using a structured meaningful code (audible language, written text, etc) that is understood by both the inquirer and the responder.

OK, I should have asked about the responder. From where does he get the information?
Nils

The responder gathers data about the status of the moon and then organizes that data into structured meaningful code that is transmitted to the inquirer.

What do you say about this quotation from Wikipedia /Information?
"The colored light reflected from a flower is too weak to do much photosynthetic work but the visual system of the bee detects it and the bee's nervous system uses the information to guide the bee to the flower, where the bee often finds nectar or pollen, which are causal inputs, serving a nutritional function. "
Nils

That looks like some pretty sophisticated design to me.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:38 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:34 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:18 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:10 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:00 am
The inquirer does not have the information he desires about the status of the moon.
That is why he is asking the responder for information about the status of the moon.

The responder gathers the information and then transmits that information to the inquirer using a structured meaningful code (audible language, written text, etc) that is understood by both the inquirer and the responder.

OK, I should have asked about the responder. From where does he get the information?
Nils

The responder gathers data about the status of the moon and then organizes that data into structured meaningful code that is transmitted to the inquirer.

What do you say about this quotation from Wikipedia /Information?
"The colored light reflected from a flower is too weak to do much photosynthetic work but the visual system of the bee detects it and the bee's nervous system uses the information to guide the bee to the flower, where the bee often finds nectar or pollen, which are causal inputs, serving a nutritional function. "
Nils

That looks like some pretty sophisticated design to me.

Yes, it is, but there are lot of much more complicated designs in biology. What's you comment on the use of 'information' here?
Nils

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:07 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:38 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:34 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:18 am

Nils wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:10 am
OK, I should have asked about the responder. From where does he get the information?
Nils

The responder gathers data about the status of the moon and then organizes that data into structured meaningful code that is transmitted to the inquirer.

What do you say about this quotation from Wikipedia /Information?
"The colored light reflected from a flower is too weak to do much photosynthetic work but the visual system of the bee detects it and the bee's nervous system uses the information to guide the bee to the flower, where the bee often finds nectar or pollen, which are causal inputs, serving a nutritional function. "
Nils

That looks like some pretty sophisticated design to me.

Yes, it is, but there are lot of much more complicated designs in biology.

There is definitely lots of evidence of design in biology.

What's you comment on the use of 'information' here?

Here's how I look at it...
I don't see the sensory input as information.
I see the sensory input as data.
The bee's nervous system then processes and organizes the input data into meaningful information that the bee can use to find the flower.

The sensory input is useless to the bee until it is processed and organized by the bee's nervous system.

Nils wrote:
Yes, it is, but there are lot of much more complicated designs in biology.

I’m glad you have finally realized this!