Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:08 pm**

puritan lad wrote:I believe that the elect shall inherit the earth, that the earth will be filled with His knowledge. Those who are rebels will be cast into Hell.

So in fact you don't believe that Christ died for the world, and you believe that he is content to settle for considerably less than what he paid for.

Posted: **Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:47 pm**

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Yes, it was a branch of hyper-preterism that I left but I still have trouble with Partial- Moderate - Preterist view that the great tribulation period has already happened. It is a fact that the purpose of the church is to be light and salt to the earth, the Kingdom of God is a present reality, etc…

puritan lad wrote: The purpose of the church is to be light and salt to the earth (Matthew 5:13) not to look to escape from some tribulation period that has already happened. The Kingdom of God is a present reality (Matthew 16:28). It will grow like leaven until the whole lump is leavened. (Matthew 13:33) It is like a rock, which will grow like a mountain until if fills the whole earth (Daniel 2:34-35) as the waters cover the sea (Habakkuk 2:14). This is the Bible's promise of the future, not the common, modern day "chicken little" doctrine.

Here is why I do not see that the Great tribulation has already happened in the past:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Zephaniah 2:3 “Seek the Lord [inquire for Him, inquire of Him, and require Him as the foremost necessity of your life], all you humble of the land who have acted in compliance with His revealed will and have kept His commandments; seek righteousness, seek humility [inquire for them, require them as vital]. It may be you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger.” Amplified Bible

Zephaniah 2:3 “Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.” NIV

Zephaniah 2:1-3 “Gather together. Gather together, O nation without shame, before you are driven away like the waste from the grain. Gather together before the burning anger of the Lord comes upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger. Look for the Lord, all you people of the earth who are not proud, and who have obeyed His Laws. Look for what is right and good. Have no pride. You may be kept safe on the day of the Lord's anger.” NLV

Zephaniah 2:1-3, “Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together, O undesirable nation, Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD's anger comes upon you! Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.” NKJV

Yes, this could apply to 70 AD but I think not as Zephaniah 3:6-8 writes when the day of the Lord will be:

Scripture Quotes wrote: “I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, `Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy.” NLT

God will gather all nations together and all the earth will be devoured by God's wrath — if that is not great tribulation then none of us knows what it is or means.

Scripture Quotes wrote: Jesus says in Matthew 24:21, “For that will be a time of greater horror than anything the world has ever seen or will ever see again.” NLT

The horror seen in 70 AD pails in comparison to WW I, WW II, the holocaust, the Russian liberation of Eastern Europe in WW II, or the Japanese rape of Nan king, Cambodia's killing fields, Rwanda, or even the Crusades and the Islamic invasions of Europe. To tell anyone that the Great Tribulation is a thing of the past has failed to note history. Jesus tells us plainly that the final day of the Lord will be more horrifying than any of these historical events has ever seen or will ever see again. These came after 70 AD. Was Jesus lying??

Truly:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Zephaniah 2:3 “Seek the Lord [inquire for Him, inquire of Him, and require Him as the foremost necessity of your life], all you humble of the land who have acted in compliance with His revealed will and have kept His commandments; seek righteousness, seek humility [inquire for them, require them as vital]. It may be you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger.” Amplified Bible

Luke 21:36 “Keep a constant watch. And pray that, if possible, you may escape these horrors and stand before the Son of Man.” NLT

Makes sense!

This is not Chicken Little — but the Lord telling us these things. If you really believe the Great Tribulation has already come and gone, the historical evidence becomes most difficult to twist away. God's wrath will be poured out on all Nations, on All People, at an appointed time! I have no idea when that time will be or its true nature. All I am telling people is to obey the Lord and Pray as Jesus commanded us.

In all honesty, I do not know the manner of escape the Lord will provide: will it be through martyrdom? Or by old age resting in a peaceful Land? Maybe a shielding from God's wrath by various means?

Till that day comes, we are to be the Church. When the ACLU tries to outlaw Christianity in the USA — we are to be the Church. Christianity is under assault by devious sources all over the world — let's not lose our saltiness. The gates of hell will not prevail over the Church even if the church is hid till the wrath of the Lord passes — however that will be. God will prevail and make a new heavens and earth. What a wonderful day that will be!
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Posted: **Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:09 pm**

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This will be a rather long post as it further tells why I left Preterism.

Please note I Thessalonians 5:9-11 and compare with the obscure Isaiah 26:20-21 in various versions of the bible:

Scripture Quotes wrote: I Thessalonians 5:9-11, “For God has not appointed us to [incur His] wrath [He did not select us to condemn us], but [that we might] obtain [His] salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who died for us so that whether we are still alive or are dead [at Christ's appearing], we might live together with Him and share His life. Therefore encourage (admonish, exhort) one another and edify (strengthen and build up) one another, just as you are doing.” Amplified Bible

I Thessalonians 5:9-11, “For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.” NKJV

Now explore Isaiah forgotten lines in these varied versions of the Bible:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Isaiah 26:20-21, “Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain.” NKJV

Now observe Isaiah 26:20-21 in context with verse 19 in these varied versions of the Bible:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Isaiah 26:19-21 “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You, who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer” NIV

Isaiah 26:19-21 “Your dead shall live [O Lord]; the bodies of our dead [saints] shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For Your dew [O Lord] is a dew of [sparkling] light [heavenly, supernatural dew]; and the earth shall cast forth the dead [to life again; for on the land of the shades of the dead You will let Your dew fall].
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the [Lord's] wrath is past. For behold, the Lord is coming out of His place [heaven] to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth also will disclose the blood shed upon her and will no longer cover her slain and conceal her guilt”. Amplified Bible

Isaiah 26:19-21 “Yet we have this assurance: Those who belong to God will live; their bodies will rise again! Those who sleep in the earth will rise up and sing for joy! For God's light of life will fall like dew on his people in the place of the dead!
20 Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide until the LORD's anger against your enemies has passed. 21Look! The LORD is coming from heaven to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will no longer hide those who have been murdered. They will be brought out for all to see.” NLT

Interesting in the light of these passages is it not?

Scripture Quotes wrote: Luke 21:35-36, “Watch out! Don't let me find you living in careless ease and drunkenness, and filled with the worries of this life. Don't let that day catch you unaware, as in a trap. For that day will come upon everyone living on the earth. Keep a constant watch. And pray that, if possible, you may escape these horrors and stand before the Son of Man.” NLT

Compare with NKJV:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Luke 21:35-36, “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly; For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man.” NKJV

Next note line of prophetic thought in these two bible versions of Zephaniah:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Zephaniah 2:3 “Seek the Lord [inquire for Him, inquire of Him, and require Him as the foremost necessity of your life], all you humble of the land who have acted in compliance with His revealed will and have kept His commandments; seek righteousness, seek humility [inquire for them, require them as vital]. It may be you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger.” Amplified Bible

Zephaniah 2:3 “Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.” NIV

Now note in these varied version of the bible:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Matthew 24:21, 29 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be… 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” NKJV

Matthew 24:21, 29 “For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again]… 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” Amplified Bible

Note NLT verse 22 added in:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Matthew 24: 21-22, 29 “…For that will be a time of greater horror than anything the world has ever seen or will ever see again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, the entire human race will be destroyed. But it will be shortened for the sake of God's chosen ones… 29"Immediately after those horrible days end, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. NLT

The great tribulation has not yet occurred for the following reasons: Wars and rumors of war continue. All these wars from 70 AD to current have increased in intensity and brutality — each superseding each with the tribulations each cause.

If the Tribulation occurred in 70 AD then these wars could not happen as Jesus said, “the world will never see this type of tribulation again.” The world has seen plenty since 70 AD and the only time it would be possible not to see such tribulation again is after the final great tribulation prophesized when the LORD comes from heaven to punish the all the people of the earth for their sins, iniquities; not just a few during 70 AD.

Note Amos 9:9-10 compared between NKJV and NLT:

Scripture Quotes wrote: Amos 9:9-10 “For surely I will command, and will sift the house of Israel among all nations, as grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground. All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, Who say, 'The calamity shall not overtake nor confront us.” NKJV

Amos 9:9-10 "For I have commanded that Israel be persecuted by the other nations as grain is sifted in a sieve, yet not one true kernel will be lost. But all the sinners will die by the sword--all those who say, `Nothing bad will happen to us.” NLT

Amos 9:9-10 happened in 70 AD and what Amos 9:14-15 tells us happened in 1948.

Scripture Quotes wrote: Amos 9:14-15 “I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land I have given them,” Says the LORD your God.” NKJV

Therefore the great final Tribulation has not yet occurred and never happened in 70 AD. Jesus tells us to pray to be counted worthy to escape this — will we all pray and by faith and simply accept what ever manner of escape the Lord provides — either through martyrdom, or by old age resting in a peaceful Land, and or by shielding from God's wrath by various means?

Also, the last I looked — the moon and stars are all still in the same place and the earth is not melted away. Any event of that magnitude would have been recorded and there would be no more death, no more sorrow, no more crying, and no more pain as the former things would have passed away. They have not. Therefore the great final tribulation is yet to come.
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Posted: **Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:25 pm**

B.W., you keep ignoring people's responses and answers and I think you're being close minded. We've already talked about this and in several other threads.

Posted: **Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:37 pm**

Religious Fanatic wrote:B.W., you keep ignoring people's responses and answers and I think you're being close minded. We've already talked about this and in several other threads.

There are many ways in which to answer questions. How can one answer if they do not first explain their position on theme under discussion? I left preterism many years ago. Another other reason I left was how many preterist hold with disdain and contempt their fellow believers in Christ. This attitude serves to alienate them from the body of Christ because other Christians do not adhere to preterist doctrine. If one does not hold preterist views, they are mocked, scorned, and held with contempt. Not all preterist do this but there are some who do. I hope none on this forum do this.

If one holds fellow believers in such contempt, then the love of Christ is being mocked. Therefore, all end time prophecy isms are non-essential doctrines and Christians can hold differing views on end time prophecy due to the nature of bible prophecy being written in the manner of enigmas and mystery. The problem arises when believers of any end time prophetic isms begin to beat and berate their fellow Christians for not believing as they do, then sin resides at the door. There is more truth to Luke 12:45 then we like to realize.

I Corinthians 12:12-27 tells us about the Christian church and that we should have the same care for each other. It is a shame when end time prophecy causes such blight on our common purpose and goal in Christ.

This is how I'll answer all my Preterist friends; you are part of the body of Christ along with those that do not hold your views. It does not matter; the future will unfold how God wills it. There is a future and none knows what tomorrow will bring. When the final end-time comes — whoever is right and whoever is wrong will be clearly manifest. Therefore, this is a non-essential point and should not be used to divide us from each other any longer.

I John 4:20-21 “If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.” RSV

That is my answer as it is pointless to ramble over what end time prophecy isms is the best, perfect, most tried and true. It would be best if both sides could just post his or her views and then let the reader decide on his or her own.
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Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:30 pm**

Fortigurn wrote:
puritan lad wrote:I believe that the elect shall inherit the earth, that the earth will be filled with His knowledge. Those who are rebels will be cast into Hell.
So in fact you don't believe that Christ died for the world, and you believe that he is content to settle for considerably less than what he paid for.

I believe that the earth is the Lord's, and the elect shall inherit it. I believe that all families and all nations will turn to the Lord, and that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

And yes, I believe that He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Since you are so gung-ho for patristics, you should be aware of the fact that, before the early 1800's, anyone who taught a pre-millenial Advent of the Savior was considered to be a kook and a crackpot.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:17 pm**

B. W. wrote:Here is why I do not see that the Great tribulation has already happened in the past:

The problem, obviously, is that Jesus Christ clearly said that the Great Tribulation would take place within the Apostle's Generation (Matthew 24:21, 34). There is no getting around the very clear meaning of this scripture.

B. W. wrote:Yes, this could apply to 70 AD but I think not as Zephaniah 3:6-8 writes when the day of the Lord will be:

Actually, I'll hold that this prophecy was fulfilled in 597 BC, when the Babylonian's conquered Israel.

B. W. wrote:
Scripture Quotes wrote: “I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, `Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy.” NLT
God will gather all nations together and all the earth will be devoured by God's wrath — if that is not great tribulation then none of us knows what it is or means.

As I pointed out earlier, This is a prophecy about the first destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 597 B.C. It is a prophecy against the “oppressing city” (Zeph. 3:1), and it's future restoration (under the Persians) (Zeph. 3:11-20).

B. W. wrote:
Scripture Quotes wrote: Jesus says in Matthew 24:21, “For that will be a time of greater horror than anything the world has ever seen or will ever see again.” NLT
The horror seen in 70 AD pails in comparison to WW I, WW II, the holocaust, the Russian liberation of Eastern Europe in WW II, or the Japanese rape of Nan king, Cambodia's killing fields, Rwanda, or even the Crusades and the Islamic invasions of Europe. To tell anyone that the Great Tribulation is a thing of the past has failed to note history. Jesus tells us plainly that the final day of the Lord will be more horrifying than any of these historical events has ever seen or will ever see again. These came after 70 AD. Was Jesus lying??

I'll ask you the same question. Jesus told the Apostle's that it would happen within their generation. Was He lying?

In answer to your post, it is true that, from a mere numerical perspective, WWII, etc. were more devastating, but not to the Jewish people. (Yes, even the holocaust was pail in comparison to 70 AD.) 70 AD was not just the historical destruction of another city. It was God's curse on the fig tree, where He destroyed those wicked men miserably. The kingdom of God was taken from them and given to the gentiles. The temple, the centerpiece of Jewish life, was destroyed. Even Jewish writers testify that, after the crucifixion of Christ, the shikina glory has left the temple. From a covenantal prospective, this was the worst tribulation imaginable.

If you insist on an interpretation of pure destruction, even your Great Tribulation won't match Noah's flood, where only eight survived as opposed to (at least 144,000), so Jesus would still be lying.

Scripture Quotes wrote: Zephaniah 2:3 “Seek the Lord [inquire for Him, inquire of Him, and require Him as the foremost necessity of your life], all you humble of the land who have acted in compliance with His revealed will and have kept His commandments; seek righteousness, seek humility [inquire for them, require them as vital]. It may be you will be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger.” Amplified Bible

See above.

Luke 21:36 “Keep a constant watch. And pray that, if possible, you may escape these horrors and stand before the Son of Man.” NLT

He was talking to His disciples. Notice the pronoun “you”. It was they who were to try to escape these horrors. There is nothing to suggest that Jesus had events 2,000 years in the future in mind.

As for the rest of your post, you seem to insist on taking warnings that Jesus gave to His Disciples and apply them to us. He told them to look to escape these things.

Matthew 24
“Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. “Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened."

After reading the above, maybe you can answer these questions for me.

Why would the days of the tribulation have to be shortened for the elects' sake?

Why would Jesus tell His disciples to flee from something that wasn't going to happen for another 2,000 (or more) years?

Why would He tell them to stay out of Jerusalem when they see the abomination of desolation when the tribulation, according to you, is worldwide and hasn't happened yet.

And verse 34 still says what it says, and there is no way around it.

Yes, there is an all out war on Christianity, but this is nothing new. This war began in the Garden of Eden. The difference is that I expect victory while you expect escape. They are not the same thing.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:16 am**

puritan lad wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
puritan lad wrote:I believe that the elect shall inherit the earth, that the earth will be filled with His knowledge. Those who are rebels will be cast into Hell.
So in fact you don't believe that Christ died for the world, and you believe that he is content to settle for considerably less than what he paid for.
I believe that the earth is the Lord's, and the elect shall inherit it. I believe that all families and all nations will turn to the Lord, and that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

And yes, I believe that He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

So you don't believe that Christ died for the world, and you believe that he is content to settle for considerably less than what he paid for.

The only way you can reconcile the atonement with your belief is to limit the atonement, which is what Calvinism is all about.

Since you are so gung-ho for patristics, you should be aware of the fact that, before the early 1800's, anyone who taught a pre-millenial Advent of the Savior was considered to be a kook and a crackpot.

Please define 'a pre-millenial Advent of the Savior', and we'll talk.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:56 am**

PL, There are many misconceptions concerning Israel and end time prophecy. Did the final day of the Lord occur in 70 AD? Was end time scripture fulfilled in 70 AD? In order to understand this subject, one must note there are many days of the Lord, or God's wrath, that the bible speaks of. Also there will be one final last day of the Lord that God pours out His wrath upon the entire world.

It looks like we are confusing terms concerning the day of the Lord and His wrath and are missing each other completely. First, there are many days of the Lord where He will pour out His Wrath. Not just one or two. Where in the bible can you find proof for this, that there are many days of the Lords wrath?

First, note the conditions the days of the Lord's wrath concerning Israel:

scripture wrote:Deuteronomy 7:4, 10 “for they will turn your sons away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the Lord will erupt against you and he will quickly destroy you.” 7:10 “but who pays back those who hate him as they deserve and destroys them. He will not ignore those who hate him but will repay them as they deserve!” NET

Deuteronomy 8: 11-20, vs19 “Now if you forget the Lord your God at all and follow other gods, worshiping and prostrating yourselves before them, I testify to you today that you will surely be annihilated. 20 Just like the nations the Lord is about to destroy from your sight, so he will do to you because you would not obey him.” NET

As you can see, when the nation of Israel turned away from God, God's wrath was turned on them. How many times did this happen? The answer is many. Not understanding that there can be more than one day of wrath can cause great confusion.

There can be more than one pouring out of wrath. For numeric example of this only, Revelations chapter 16 speaks of seven bowels of God's Wrath being doled out. From this alone, I hope a person can see that many wrath filled epochs of the Lord do occur. All throughout the bible God has poured out His Wrath and there will be one last time He will do so.

scripture wrote:Zephaniah 3:8-9 “Therefore wait for Me,” says the LORD, “Until the day I rise up for plunder; My determination is to gather the nations to My assembly of kingdoms, to pour on them My indignation, all My fierce anger; all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy. For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language that they all may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one accord.” NKJV

2 Peter3:7-13 "But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, by being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare. Since all these things are to melt away in this manner, what sort of people must we be, conducting our lives in holiness and godliness, while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God? Because of this day, the heavens will be burned up and dissolve and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze! But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides.” NET

God has one final pouring out of Wrath to come. My point is clear, this final pouring out has not yet occurred. It did not occur in 70 AD. The 70 AD time of wrath was not the great tribulation yet to come as Joel 3:1-21 says.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=50;

Note verse Joel3:16

scripture wrote:“The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” NKJV

The final Day of Wrath will be poured out on all the earth. God tells us that He did not appoint Christians to wrath. When His final wrath is poured out, God tells us He will shelter us, Hide us, as it is written in

scripture wrote:Zep2:3, “Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of the LORD's anger.” NKJV

Again in Isaiah 26:20 “Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past.” NKJV

Luke 21:36, “But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Whenever this final out pouring of God's wrath occurs, God promises those Christians that will be alive at that time; He will protect and hide them. If you believe that that time has already past then you are telling people to disobey a direct command from the Lord Jesus Christ to “stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Do you realize that there are more than one or two days of the Lord? I speak of the last and final day of God's wrath being poured out on the entire earth. It sounds like to me; you are focusing in on one single day (time period) that occurred in 70 AD and transferring its meaning to define the final day of God's Wrath has already happened?

Is this so?

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Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:02 am**

Fortigurn,

Limited Atonement is not hard to understand, and I've already addressed this in it's proper thread (Calvinism vs. Arminianism). If a sovereign God wanted every person to be saved, then every person would be saved. Postmillennialism does not teach universal salvation. It teaches that Christianity will "leaven the whole lump", whereas all other beliefs will become nearly obsolete before Christ returns. In other words, the church will succeed in the Great Commission, not fail. (See Psalm 22:27-28, Daniel 2:35, Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 60:1-22, Matthew 13:33). This is the type of unfulfilled prophecy that was "The Puritan Hope", which was the foundation of world missions and the last revivals that this world has seen. It is these prophecies that are incompatible with the modern view of a Great Tribulation in the near furture that we hope to escape from. Since the dawn of Irvingism and Darbyism in the early 1800's, the church has been in retreat, viewing this world as a lost cause, hoping to escape from it without dying. The irrelevance of the gospel in modern times has become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Please define 'a pre-millenial Advent of the Savior', and we'll talk.

Define it? It means exactly what it says, that the Second Advent takes place before the "millennium".

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:05 am**

There is a resistance to the nation of Israel that has crept into bible prophecy. Your view on Amos chapter 8 through 9 reveals this variance is alive and well. This conflict with Israel's past and current existence cannot be easily explained away.

There have been historical two time periods in which the Nation of the Jewish people had their temple totally destroyed, twice the population scattered, and twice re-gathered. This was prophesied in many places in the Old Testament. The book of Amos is the best preserved book that describes both of these events.

Amos chapter's 2-7 deal primarily with the first time the Jewish people would have their temple totally destroyed, the population scattered, and re-gathered. In Amos 2:4-8 and in Amos 3: 2, 11 it speak why this first cycle event would occur — The people forgot God and no longer performed His will. Amos goes on in the proceeding chapters explaining that a day of the Lord's wrath will come upon them for this.

Amos 5:27 contains the clue that the Jewish people would be scattered beyond Damascus, which did occur during 400-500 BC time frame.

scripture wrote:Amos 5:27 “and I will drive you into exile beyond Damascus,” says the Lord. He is called the God who commands armies!” NET

Amos 6:1-8 reveals who will be driven into exile;

scripture wrote:verse Amos 6:7 “Therefore they will now be the first to go into exile, and the religious banquets where they sprawl on couches will end NET.”

This refers to the upper class of Israel.

Please note Daniel 1:1-4 which verifies this fact. All this was part of the first exile beyond Damascus and known as the Babylonian Captivity. Later Nehemiah would lead the people back to the land of Israel and later the first cycle period is closed.

Amos chapters 8-9 the tone changes and a prophetic shift begin. Amos 8:1-3 describes a time when God will end the OT covenant of animal sacrifice. This is what is meant by God not passing by Israel anymore — not that they cease to exist as a people but the Old covenant will pass away to a new one.

scripture wrote:Amos 8:1-3, 1 Thus the Lord GOD showed me: “Behold, a basket of summer fruit. And He said, “Amos, what do you see?” So I said, “A basket of summer fruit.”

Then the LORD said to me: “The end has come upon My people Israel; I will not pass by them anymore. And the songs of the temple shall be wailing in that day,” says the Lord GOD— “Many dead bodies everywhere, They shall be thrown out in silence.” NKJV

Remember, Amos was not in Judah where the temple was located when he prophesied.

The events from the pages of History can be seen in Amos 8:3-14, the 70 AD destruction of the temple, a famine not of food but a lack of hearing the word of God from around the time of Herod till this current date. Amos 9:2-4 describes more accurately what Josephus wrote of the events in 70 AD than many would like to consider.

Notice the time line in Amos 9:8-15:

scripture wrote:Verses 8-10 “Look, the sovereign Lord is watching the sinful nation, and I will destroy it from the face of the earth. But I will not completely destroy the family of Jacob,” says the Lord.” NET

This destruction did not occur in the 400-500 BC time frames but rather in 70 AD. PL, in another thread, you state this fact clearly: the OT Jewish system was destroyed in 70 AD.

scripture wrote:Amos 9:9-10 “For look, I am giving a command and I will shake the family of Israel together with all the nations. It will resemble a sieve being shaken, when not even a pebble falls to the ground. All the sinners among my people will die by the sword — the ones who say, 'Disaster will not come near, it will not confront us.” NET

Note the second scattering of the family of Israel will be scattered together with all the nations. This is known as the Diaspora and happened after 70 AD when the nation of Israel was shifted and scattered into ALL NATIONS — not a few nations — but all.

Verses 11-12 reveals that around this time frame the Messiah comes and establishes a new temple (the body), a new covenant where Gentiles can also enter that are called by his name. Please note that this did not occur in the 400-500 BC Time Frames but later, just before the destruction noted to have happened in 70 AD.

Now note Amos 9:14-25:

scripture wrote:Amos 9:14 I will bring back my people, Israel; they will rebuild the cities lying in rubble and settle down. They will plant vineyards and drink the wine they produce; they will grow orchards and eat the fruit they produce. 15 I will plant them on their land and they will never again be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the Lord your God.” NET

Verses 14-15 speak of the second return because they will not be scattered any more. This happened in 1948. Why? Verse 15 “I will plant them on their land and they will never again be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the Lord your God.” NET

In 70 AD they were uprooted again. If this verse is referring to the 400-500 BC time frame, as you believe and so noted about the books of Zephaniah and Amos, then the bible is in error and cannot be believed.

Now note what Jesus said in:

scripture wrote:Luke 21:24 “They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led away as captives among all nations; Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” NET

You cannot get any plainer than that regarding prophecy from Amos referring to both periods, epochs, in which the Temple was destroyed, the people scattered, and then re-gathered. The Last re-gathering occurred in 1948 — only fifty seven years ago.

scripture wrote: Luke 17:22-37 “Then he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. Then people will say to you, 'Look, there he is!' or 'Look, here he is!' Do not go out or chase after them. For just like the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.

“But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man; People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage — right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

“Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be the same on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

“On that day, anyone who is on the roof, with his goods in the house, must not come down to take them away, and likewise the person in the field must not turn back. Remember Lot's wife!

Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, in that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” Then the disciples said to him, “Where, Lord?” He replied to them, “Where the dead body is, there the vultures will gather.” NET

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Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:17 am**

puritan lad wrote:Fortigurn,

Limited Atonement is not hard to understand, and I've already addressed this in it's proper thread (Calvinism vs. Arminianism).

It's extremely difficult to understand given the mass of Scriptures which proclaim that Christ died for everyone.

If a sovereign God wanted every person to be saved, then every person would be saved.

I disagree. There is a clear distinction in Scripture made between His desiderative will and His decretive will.

Postmillennialism does not teach universal salvation.

I agree.

It teaches that Christianity will "leaven the whole lump", whereas all other beliefs will become nearly obsolete before Christ returns. In other words, the church will succeed in the Great Commission, not fail. (See Psalm 22:27-28, Daniel 2:35, Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 60:1-22, Matthew 13:33).

So what's the point of Christ returning, if we're here to do the job ourselves? The future rests firmly in the hands of men? God can take a back seat while we get on with the role of restoring the earth to Edenic conditions and filling the earth with His glory? The creation succeeds where the Creator failed?

I don't see the prophecies you quote being fulfilled prior to the return of Christ.

The irrelevance of the gospel in modern times has become a self fulfilling prophecy.

I think Calvinism already killed the gospel. There's no point preaching to those who are dead, and whom God will never make alive.

Please define 'a pre-millenial Advent of the Savior', and we'll talk.
Define it? It means exactly what it says, that the Second Advent takes place before the "millennium".

Thanks, I'm just making sure we're using the same terminology. So you are arguing that prior to the eartly 19th century, 'anyone who taught a pre-millenial Advent of the Savior was considered to be a kook and a crackpot'?

Do I have that correct?

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:12 am**

'The near approach of this wonderful event had been predicted by the apostles; the tradition of it was preserved by their earliest disciples and those who understood in their literal sense the discourses of Christ himself were obliged to expect the second and glorious coming of the Son of Man in the clouds... the ancient and popular doctrine of the millennium (the 1000 year reign of Divine rule), was intimately connected with the second coming of Christ... and that Christ, with the triumphant band of the saints and the elect who had escaped death or who had been miraculously revived, would reign upon earth till the time appointed for the last and general resurrection...

The assurance of such a millennium was carefully inculcated by a succession of fathers from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, who conversed with the immediate disciples of the apostles down to Lactantius, who was preceptor to the son of Constantine.

Though it might not be universally received, it appears to have been the reigning sentiment of the orthodox believers...

But when the edifice of the church was almost completed, the temporary support was laid aside. The doctrine of Christ's reign upon earth was at first treated as a profound allegory, was considered by degrees as a doubtful and useless opinion, and was at length rejected as the absurd invention of heresy and fanaticism.'

Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire', volume 1, pages 454-455, 1776-1788

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:17 am**

'The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment.'

Philip Schaff, 'History of the Christian Church', page 614, 1910

Do I need to quote Mosheim and others? Or should I simply get straight to the quotes from the Early Fathers?

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:29 pm**

PL wrote:After reading the above, maybe you can answer these questions for me.
Why would the days of the tribulation have to be shortened for the elects' sake?

Because God said He would as I described in earlier frame before being interrupted by another's recent questions and points.

PL wrote:Why would Jesus tell His disciples to flee from something that wasn't going to happen for another 2,000 (or more) years?

Two events being described — Note Luke 17:22-37, “Then he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. Then people will say to you, 'Look, there he is!' or 'Look, here he is!' Do not go out or chase after them. For just like the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.

“But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man; People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage — right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

“Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be the same on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

“On that day, anyone who is on the roof, with his goods in the house, must not come down to take them away, and likewise the person in the field must not turn back. Remember Lot's wife!

Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, in that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” Then the disciples said to him, “Where, Lord?” He replied to them, “Where the dead body is, there the vultures will gather.” NET

And - 2 Peter3:7-13 "But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, by being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of the ungodly. Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day. The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; when it comes, the heavens will disappear with a horrific noise, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze, and the earth and every deed done on it will be laid bare. Since all these things are to melt away in this manner, what sort of people must we be, conducting our lives in holiness and godliness, while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God? Because of this day, the heavens will be burned up and dissolve and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze! But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides.” NET

PL wrote:Why would He tell them to stay out of Jerusalem when they see the abomination of desolation when the tribulation, according to you, is worldwide and hasn't happened yet?

I Thess. 5:1-11 “But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.” NKJV

As for the abomination of desolation, that is one of those enigmas of prophecy. It could be referring to two events maybe more — maybe less. You claim full revelation of the below scripture but I question it.

II Thess. 2:1-12 “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

“Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” NKJV

I never known Caesar to turn water into wine or perform any miracles before or after 70 AD. The mystery of lawlessness was working then as it does so today. The great falling away has not occurred yet. During the 33-300 AD time frame, the church was growing and not falling away. The Day mentioned is the final day of God's wrath upon which he pours out on the earth. This has not yet happened. Note my prior frame for more concerning days of the Lord and wrath.

PL wrote:And verse Matt 24:34 still says what it says, and there is no way around it.

Matt 24:29-35 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.” NKJV

You are correct — the Bible says what it says: Nowhere in the testimony of the Historical record it states that Jesus physically returned in 70 AD. Heaven and earth has not passed away either as other scripture confirm will happen.

PL wrote:Yes, there is an all out war on Christianity, but this is nothing new. This war began in the Garden of Eden. The difference is that I expect victory while you expect escape. They are not the same thing.

I expect victory too and also believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will perform what He says He will do: God will pour out His wrath upon all nations; He will hide those Christians who are alive in that time period safe from His wrath. That is victory, not defeat. Please refrain from accusing your fellow Christian brothers and sisters of being cowards because they do not believe as you do or interpret end time prophecy as you do. This is a non-essential issue that brothers and sisters in Christ can disagree on, lets be careful on how we disagree so as not to stain the cause of Christ.
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Evidence for God from Science

Preterism

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Re: RE: