Evidence for God from Science

Depends on the action. If someone had a predisposition to, for example, theft, then I would consider that wrong. Theft causes distress and harm to the victims.

However, If a man and I fall in love, and have a monogamous, committed relationship, neither of us is harmed. In fact, our separation would cause us direct harm.

And as for us being able to transcend the natural world and make it conform to our own desires and needs, I think earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, forest fires and the like are evidence enough that we can't.

I didn't say the natural world wouldn't retaliate, but the fact we domesticate animals, build houses, dams, farms, power plants, and what have you I think shows we do very much make nature conform to our needs and desires.

So you're idea of wrong and right is if it doesn't hurt anyone outside of the people involved than it is alright?

Kurieuo

under_milk_wood wrote:Depends on the action. If someone had a predisposition to, for example, theft, then I would consider that wrong. Theft causes distress and harm to the victims.

Interesting that you expect such a person to transcend their predisposition in such a case...

under_milk_wood wrote:And as for us being able to transcend the natural world and make it conform to our own desires and needs, I think earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, forest fires and the like are evidence enough that we can't.

I didn't say the natural world wouldn't retaliate, but the fact we domesticate animals, build houses, dams, farms, power plants, and what have you I think shows we do very much make nature conform to our needs and desires.

under_milk_wood wrote:However, If a man and I fall in love, and have a monogamous, committed relationship, neither of us is harmed. In fact, our separation would cause us direct harm.

So your idea of wrong and right is if it doesn't hurt anyone outside of the people involved than it is alright? Do you really believe this, and if so how does this line up with Christian teachings of morality?

Kurieuo

I don't think I said "outside of the people involved." In my example, the people involved aren't harmed, except from when they're made to be separated.

under_milk_wood wrote:I don't think I said "outside of the people involved." In my example, the people involved aren't harmed, except from when they're made to be separated.

No I said that, and put it in the form of a question to clarify your criteria for what you think is morally alright. I also think it was relevant to your example. I think you misread.

Kurieuo

OK, have re-read, and understand your question now.

I think that if it's not causing harm (to people inside or outside of the reltaionshp) then the relationship is morally acceptable. Clearly any kind of abusive or exploitative relationship isn't acceptable.

As for how this is in line with Christian morality, I really don't know. I'm not a Christian, I consider myself agnostic (a Christian friend of mine once called me humanist, but I'm not sure of that) I only found this site by accident while looking for debates on the ethics of stem cell technologies. I just thought I'd chip in my bit.

under_milk_wood wrote:OK, have re-read, and understand your question now.

I think that if it's not causing harm (to people inside or outside of the reltaionshp) then the relationship is morally acceptable. Clearly any kind of abusive or exploitative relationship isn't acceptable.

But many point out homosexuality is a physically harmful activity (see http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/h ... ality.html). So according to your standard of what is acceptable, many would be justified in believing homosexual activity as not being good. And yet, Christians generally don't submit to your standard so we can't use it to argue that homosexuality is wrong (I'll say more below).

umw wrote:As for how this is in line with Christian morality, I really don't know. I'm not a Christian, I consider myself agnostic (a Christian friend of mine once called me humanist, but I'm not sure of that) I only found this site by accident while looking for debates on the ethics of stem cell technologies. I just thought I'd chip in my bit.

I had felt earlier you didn't want to come out with you weren't Christian, so I appreciate your honesty here.

Christians generally don't submit to the that if noone is being hurt then anything is good, but rather believe they are accountable to God in all things (whether it impacts badly on people, or whether an action may simply affect their character). We are given advice from the Apostle Paul to encourage each other to do what is right, and to set our goal to more Christ like. Interestingly Christ appears to focus more on reaching out to the outcast (prostitudes, tax collectors [who often took more than the tax demanded and so were theives], etc), whereas the religious leaders of his day focused more on being pure and strictly adhering to religious commandments (for example, challenging Christ's actions to heal on the Sabbath, his association with the outcast, drinking and the way he ate). Whether one is homosexual, Christ still wants to reach out to the outcast, and to sinners who want to change. He is less interested in people such as the Pharisees of his day who focussed purifying themselves, while ignoring those around them, and I believe less interested in those who always try to justify their actions. For if such people think they don't need forgiveness, then Christ through whom everyone has been forgiven, isn't going to force people into receiving His gift of forgiveness—such will be judged by God without.

So within Christianity it is very important not only to recognise what is sin so we can strive to become more Christ-like, but so we can acknowledge it and bring it to Christ to help us stop. God isn't an ogre (like religious people such as many Pharisees of Christ's day) wanting to strike down anyone down who sins. No, God desires to have mercy on us, and for us to simply come to Him with all our issues, especially our sins. The struggle is lifelong, but we have another who can help us, the Holy Spirit, and we can keep coming back to Christ for help.

Now homosexuality is more of a struggle for some than others. What is one meant to do if the opposite sex to them is repulsive, while the same sex is appealing? Is such a person to go without "love" (as I've heard it asked)? No, not go without "love", there are many loves, and many people have lived quite fine without a sexual partner. Maybe God places a higher, perhaps better, calling on such people if they turn to Him. A calling such as Paul's which did not involve having a family but being focused more upon God's purpose and reaching out to others? I can only speculate, but I do know our struggle with sin is lifelong and that we have Someone who can be by our side regardless if we only only allow them to be. We as Christians only need to be honest with God so He can help us.

Now is practicing homosexuality is a sin? Well sin is missing the mark. Whose mark? God's mark. So such a question can only be understood in relation to God. What does God think of practicing homosexuality? For this Christians turn to Scripture, and as you may be aware there are many clear passages in Scripture (by Paul, and also within the Old Testiment) that "sex" between people of the same sex, promiscuity, or orgies, and the like are not acceptable to God. Thus, those who practice such things miss God's mark. A Christian struggling with this sin then, should keep going back to God and asking for help for as long as they need it or as long as they live. God will have mercy, but He won't on those who attempt to justify their morality above God's.

Kurieuo

You would need to be a geneticist to correctly answer this question. If you aren't then it is merely worthless opinion.

itdontgo wrote:You would need to be a geneticist to correctly answer this question. If you aren't then it is merely worthless opinion.

That is easier than interactiong with what he said.

Kurieuo wrote:[Now is practicing homosexuality is a sin? Well sin is missing the mark. Whose mark? God's mark. So such a question can only be understood in relation to God. What does God think of practicing homosexuality? For this Christians turn to Scripture, and as you may be aware there are many clear passages in Scripture (by Paul, and also within the Old Testiment) that "sex" between people of the same sex, promiscuity, or orgies, and the like are not acceptable to God. Thus, those who practice such things miss God's mark. A Christian struggling with this sin then, should keep going back to God and asking for help for as long as they need it or as long as they live. God will have mercy, but He won't on those who attempt to justify their morality above God's.

Kurieuo

I agree with you Kurieuo, but the homosexual will then say..

"However, not everyone follows your bible...and not everyone who follows your bible follows your interpretation."

How does the Christian argue against that?

Phoenix wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:[Now is practicing homosexuality is a sin? Well sin is missing the mark. Whose mark? God's mark. So such a question can only be understood in relation to God. What does God think of practicing homosexuality? For this Christians turn to Scripture, and as you may be aware there are many clear passages in Scripture (by Paul, and also within the Old Testiment) that "sex" between people of the same sex, promiscuity, or orgies, and the like are not acceptable to God. Thus, those who practice such things miss God's mark. A Christian struggling with this sin then, should keep going back to God and asking for help for as long as they need it or as long as they live. God will have mercy, but He won't on those who attempt to justify their morality above God's.

Kurieuo

I agree with you Kurieuo, but the homosexual will then say..

"However, not everyone follows your bible...and not everyone who follows your bible follows your interpretation."

How does the Christian argue against that?

Point is, you do not need too. The real answer comes when one stands before God and answers too Him.

There are several things about Homosexuality that are neglected. First, I Corinthians 6:9-11 states you can be forgiven of this. Next, Romans 1:16-19 states the same thing and then goes on to describe how the Just live by Faith. Romans 1:25 goes on to state how people reject faith in God in exchange to worship and serve the creature things of life by use of arguments to justify what they are doing is right and blest.

Romans 1:26-27 states what defines Homosexual activity is and its physical recompense. Now add in the forgotten verse of Romans 1:28, “Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, He has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do.” GNB

The point is this — “Because those people refuse…” You see, the main sin of Homosexuality is not about the “Love Argument” it is "Pride". I have counseled many Homosexuals and seen this to be true. It is a pride and superior attitude they have, in fact, the same as all unsaved people have - that their life and manner of living and conduct is superior due to the good feelings derived from doing whatever they do.

George Takai came out of the closet and exhibits this style of pride that refuses God and in exchange worships and serves a lie — the lie of Pride. Or as Romans1:25 states. “For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever.” MKJV

It is the rejection of God that the Homosexual will have to answer too, same as all the unsaved will have to do regarding their life course. It is the Pride of Life that is the chief reason why Homosexuality is wrong.

God does not want that pride in heaven and will not permit it, no matter how much of the grand “Love Argument” the gay community throws at Christians and the secular world.

Fact is, like all unsaved, they love themselves more than God and refuse God's help to repent from the error of their ways. Bible declares and teaches that we are to die to self and live to God. Pride teaches, to live to please self and die to God. Herein is the test and message of Romans chapter one for all humanity.

As for the question asked earlier…"but the homosexual will then say…

...However, not everyone follows your bible...and not everyone who follows your bible follows your interpretation."

How does the Christian argue against that?

Point is, you do not need too. The real answer comes when one stands before God and answers too Him. Are you brave enough too? Will your arguments stand before him? Do you love Steve or Sue more than God? Do you love your self more than God? That is the test. Will you pass? Will you repent?

The pride of life is held dear to those who serve the creature things of life. Those that find God surrender that pride — that is repentance. Question — will you?

1 John 2:15-17, “Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust of it, but he who does the will of God abides forever.” MKJV
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May I add a thought?

I don't have the time to read through all pages, so I checked through the first and the last.

At least according to Islam, one is not blamed for homosexual feelings, but one is blamed for homosexual actions. Isn't it somewhat the same in Christianity? Regardless if its origin is genetic or not.

Here is one article critical to the claim that homosexuality has genetic origin:

“This is the Way God Made Me” A Scientific Examination of Homosexuality and the “Gay Gene”

Seeker of Truth wrote:May I add a thought?

I don't have the time to read through all pages, so I checked through the first and the last.

At least according to Islam, one is not blamed for homosexual feelings, but one is blamed for homosexual actions. Isn't it somewhat the same in Christianity? Regardless if its origin is genetic or not.

Here is one article critical to the claim that homosexuality has genetic origin:

“This is the Way God Made Me” A Scientific Examination of Homosexuality and the “Gay Gene”

Seeker. You hit on a good point. I believe that there are people for reasons that may be genetic, hormonal or environmental related to their upbringing that are more inclined to homosexuality than others. I think that same is true to varying degrees with other areas of sin such as drunkenness and gluttony, although obviously I'm not making a complete comparison there.

Inclination in a specific area is temptation, not necessarily sin.

Behavior in that regard is more determinative than anything, although Jesus does teach that sin takes place in the mind or heart before it manifests in our behavior.

I think Evangelicals have done a lousy job in teaching and communicating this to people in a way that communicates God's message of acceptance of people where they are and that far too often we have placed certain sins into categories that we find more acceptable than others.

Jesus' hanging with the crowds He did when He was here in his earthly ministries caused a great deal of criticism from the "religious" Pharisees. Jesus blasted them for it.

Those pharisees would be very more comfortable in many evangelical Churches in the US and Canada today than they were in Christ's presence.

That's a sad statement.