Evidence for God from Science

BavarianWheels wrote:

zoegirl wrote:I understand that you don't condone it.

Good...larger picture is that marijuana and prostitution hurt only those people that partake in it...marijuana being even less harmful (if at all) than legal cigarettes/cigars. You'd be hard pressed to find one prostitute that is ignorant to the moral and legal implications of their chosen profession. Fact is, the income far outweighs the consequences in the here and now and that's what the prostitute is trying to get through.
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Prostitution and marijauna only hurt those that partake in it? How do you figure that?

Spouses are cheated upon.
Families are destroyed.
Sexual diseases are transmitted and passed onto spouses and others.
The institution of marriage is weakened.
Workers in other countries are enslaved and forced to work to provide drugs for dealers.
Medical costs are driven up for sexually transmitted diseases and drug rehabilitation.
Drug use leads to increased job absenteeism which increases the costs of goods sold and services provided.

Do I need to go on?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Prostitution and marijauna only hurt those that partake in it? How do you figure that?

Spouses are cheated upon.
Families are destroyed.
Sexual diseases are transmitted and passed onto spouses and others.
The institution of marriage is weakened.
Workers in other countries are enslaved and forced to work to provide drugs for dealers.
Medical costs are driven up for sexually transmitted diseases and drug rehabilitation.
Drug use leads to increased job absenteeism which increases the costs of goods sold and services provided.

Do I need to go on?

Yes...only those spouses that have cheating spouses. If it wasn't a prostitute, it would be a willing woman/man.
Family destroyed regardless of prostitute if spouse wants/needs to cheat. Not a "prostitute" problem.
Marriage is weakened by the slip of family values being taught by the government.
Make the drugs legal...bring down demand...lessen the enslaved workers.
Medical costs are driven up regardless of prostitution and/or marijuana. What exactly does marijuana cause more of that smoking and/or drinking doesn't cause??
Drug use leads to increased...only to those that use drugs...not a problem to those of us that steer clear of "illegal" drugs and would no matter if they were made legal.

Get rid of Vice Units in America...free up cops to persue real criminals, rapists, child abuse...prostitution isn't a crime...just morally wrong. No different than one cheating on his/her spouse is not a crime...but morally wrong and not without consequences.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

zoegirl wrote:I understand that you don't condone it.

Good...larger picture is that marijuana and prostitution hurt only those people that partake in it...marijuana being even less harmful (if at all) than legal cigarettes/cigars. You'd be hard pressed to find one prostitute that is ignorant to the moral and legal implications of their chosen profession. Fact is, the income far outweighs the consequences in the here and now and that's what the prostitute is trying to get through.
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Thanks BavarianWheels, you're getting some of these points across much better than I did...

Except for the fact that you guys have summarily dismissed all of the prostitutes that have not chosen that lifestyle. Th young women who were abused and sunk into that lifestyle.

Cheating and adultery IS a stupid foolish decision by two parties. Prostitution, in most cases, is a desperate case for women to earn money through men who don't even care for them. A

zoegirl wrote:Except for the fact that you guys have summarily dismissed all of the prostitutes that have not chosen that lifestyle. Th young women who were abused and sunk into that lifestyle.

Then the problem is not prostitution, but abuse (or child abuse). However, the lifestyle is chosen. No one stays unless they want to or FEEL they must. Everyone can walk away and get on a bus to the opposite coast after a few "tricks"...

zoegirl wrote:Cheating and adultery IS a stupid foolish decision by two parties. Prostitution, in most cases, is a desperate case for women to earn money through men who don't even care for them. A

They both don't care...hence the reason it should'nt be "illegal". It's between TWO CONSENTING ADULTS...of which the act itself is no more Illegal than kissing strangers willing to let you kiss them/kiss you back.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

zoegirl wrote:Except for the fact that you guys have summarily dismissed all of the prostitutes that have not chosen that lifestyle. Th young women who were abused and sunk into that lifestyle.

Then the problem is not prostitution, but abuse (or child abuse). However, the lifestyle is chosen. No one stays unless they want to or FEEL they must. Everyone can walk away and get on a bus to the opposite coast after a few "tricks"...

zoegirl wrote:Cheating and adultery IS a stupid foolish decision by two parties. Prostitution, in most cases, is a desperate case for women to earn money through men who don't even care for them. A

They both don't care...hence the reason it should'nt be "illegal". It's between TWO CONSENTING ADULTS...of which the act itself is no more Illegal than kissing strangers willing to let you kiss them/kiss you back.
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You're living in an uncrealistic world if you think that prostitutes, most of them, have chosen the life. AND that they can earn enough money to get of the lifestyle.

Ever here of being psychologically damaged to the point where you no longer even realize you ARE being abused. Sometimes one thinks there IS no way out.

zoegirl wrote:Except for the fact that you guys have summarily dismissed all of the prostitutes that have not chosen that lifestyle. Th young women who were abused and sunk into that lifestyle.

Cheating and adultery IS a stupid foolish decision by two parties. Prostitution, in most cases, is a desperate case for women to earn money through men who don't even care for them. A

So why on Earth would we want to make their lives more miserable by ensuring they remain criminals, given that they have to do it in the first place? They've not sinners so much as victims. Isn't that why the law should be used to protect them, given that society can't be relied upon to deny itself the biblical sin of paying for sex'? Isn't the law of the State meant to govern society prudently - and effectively - where society fails in its spiritual duty to live up to God's expectations for the human race? If the lawlords haven't managed to eradicate prostitution perhaps they can try another tactic to see if that lessens the scourge?

And let's not forget regarding the present argument, it's not so many posts ago that someone was expressing horror that a 'Christian brother' might be led astray and forced to defile his body with a fallen woman if prostitution were legalised, which seems to firmly put the blame at the door of the hooker.

In any event, you are right, 'choice' is the wrong word in this case, but for the most part I would hope they are at least adults and if they're not, well, legalising would help sort that out.

One thing I think we've all managed to agree on is that this is a moral dilemma....

charlotte wrote:So why on Earth would we want to make their lives more miserable by ensuring they remain criminals, given that they have to do it in the first place? They've not sinners so much as victims.

SO how would legalizing it help them out of a situation once we declare what they do to be perfectly just? Once we've declared this to be a legit job, there would be no recourse to stop it.

I would gladly support heavier consequences to the johns and pimps.

And for those who gladly engage...they are knowingly engaging in an activity that does destroy marriages and families.

zoegirl wrote:

charlotte wrote:So why on Earth would we want to make their lives more miserable by ensuring they remain criminals, given that they have to do it in the first place? They've not sinners so much as victims.

SO how would legalizing it help them out of a situation once we declare what they do to be perfectly just? Once we've declared this to be a legit job, there would be no recourse to stop it.

Why stop it? Are you as adamant about stopping the speeders on the highway? It's already a law, yet there are many that continually speed on the highway regardess. To unlimit speed laws would make EVERYONE on the highway at risk...to legalize prostitution would put only those involved in paying for sex/selling sex at risk. It's already being done inspite of laws against it...

zoegirl wrote:I would gladly support heavier consequences to the johns and pimps.

Equal consequences I would suggest...which is really worse? Two are in it for money, the other for pleasure.

zoegirl wrote:And for those who gladly engage...they are knowingly engaging in an activity that does destroy marriages and families.

Yes it does...but then so does smoking, drinking...which are legal.
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As a former counselor myself, I've seen first hand what prostitution has done to families.. It is a cancer that has destroyed many people's lives. Women are demoralized to worthless cattle... I guess I'm surprised and shocked why anyone would want to legalize it. Laws are here to protect.. These are human beings we are talking about here, not animals...

Gman wrote:As a former counselor myself, I've seen first hand what prostitution has done to families.. It is a cancer that has destroyed many people's lives. Women are demoralized to worthless cattle... I guess I'm surprised and shocked why anyone would want to legalize it. Laws are here to protect.. These are human beings we are talking about here, not animals...

I'm amazed as well. I don't doubt anyone's motives or that they're being honest in their opinions.

I cannot understand, knowing that most prostitutes are in that lifestyle because they've been abused, usually sexually, and/or are addicted to a substance and are then in a cycle that makes it near impossible for them to leave, how anyone could believe that legitimizing it would solve anything. Legalizing it, on a social level doesn't solve any problem. It simply sweeps it under the rug and legitimizes it.

In the big picture the biggest issue isn't the legitimizing of it, but rather how the Church is to reach and love those who are broken people. I surely hope that any who profess the name of Christ who would argue for legalization on the basis of practicality, would be the first to be funding and personally involved in ministry to reach and rescue the many who are held bondage to it.

I'm studying for my exams, but I had to post...

Canuckster1127 wrote:I'm amazed as well. I don't doubt anyone's motives or that they're being honest in their opinions.

I cannot understand, knowing that most prostitutes are in that lifestyle because they've been abused, usually sexually, and/or are addicted to a substance and are then in a cycle that makes it near impossible for them to leave, how anyone could believe that legitimizing it would solve anything. Legalizing it, on a social level doesn't solve any problem. It simply sweeps it under the rug and legitimizes it.

I think many people are not aware of what prostitution does to people. In many cases these woman (and men) are left so helpless and dejected. I have witnessed this first hand. Like you said, the only way to ease the pain is to take more drugs, a never ending spiral of emotional suffering and torment. And now we want to legalize this madness??

Canuckster1127 wrote:In the big picture the biggest issue isn't the legitimizing of it, but rather how the Church is to reach and love those who are broken people. I surely hope that any who profess the name of Christ who would argue for legalization on the basis of practicality, would be the first to be funding and personally involved in ministry to reach and rescue the many who are held bondage to it.

Well we all know what God thinks about it... My beliefs about it is that God opposes it greatly. The ministries involved to reach and rescue those effected are already too full... Where does it end?

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Interesting thoughts...with which I agree with in general. My problem (I guess it's a problem) is that there is no such "effort" to make other things already legal, Illegal...such as the effects of alcoholism, drug addiction (by this I mean plain old cigarettes)...but you want to stop prostitution (and except for Nevada and a handful of other areas I assume) prostitution is already illegal. Yet with all your rants about, "I cannot believe anyone would want to legitimize..." nothing is accomplished by it being illegal! The problem I see with your arguments for leaving/making prostitution illegal is that it doesn't stop prostitution...in fact I believe it makes it worse. I'm not saying condone the "profession" as a legitimate job, but leave it alone as there are no players unwillingly in the game. Some are left with not much of a choice, I can agree with that, but it still isn't impossible to walk away from. The problem is that these girls (and guys) are used to a certain amount of money and starting over isn't going to fill that amount because most are also addicts and you can't feed an addict on a minimum wage income. Are there abused victims in this profession? Of course there are...mostly because they are in an illegal profession and they have hardly any recourse as they see it. Is there drugs involved? How else do you hold a person as such?

Does it harm me or you, non-players? Not in the least. We will always have to foot the bill for the less fortunate. If it's not the prostitutes, it's the abused women who can't seem to keep their legs closed and keep popping out children because society allows them to be essentially prostitutes, yet they don't "earn" a wage from their 'john', but from Uncle Sam instead...it's legal that way.

In the end, the act itself isn't what the lawmakers are outlaw'ing...it's the inability to tax their income...it's politics really...has nothing to do with morality. Some of us would like to think so, but it's just wishful thinking.
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Nobody is denying the damaging effects of prostitution and it is concern for the horror of many prostitutes' lives that makes me argue for some form of regulation. There is more chance of helping these women if they are permitted to operate within the law, given that - and this is quite a fundamental point - no law has succeeded in deterring men/women from paying for sex and other men/women from selling it.

Sex has been at the root of a key spiritual challenge and source of temptation since the birth of humanity and the intimate link between sex and money/power is visible in every corner of society. Distasteful though it may seem, when you start brining 'spiritual' elements into this debate regarding the sanctity of the body and negative spiritual consequences of abusing our sexuality, you have to look a lot deeper into society than the surface element of prostitution. You have to look inside every mind and every bedroom around the world and decide upon the pros and cons (if you'll excuse the pun).

Then you've got to think about the drink - the very thing that gives so many people the 'courage' to do things they would normally only dream of. In fact, you probably shouldn't let people have the chance to do anything whatsoever that might be considered a temptation and be potentially damaging to their spiritual development. Where's that list going to start and end, somewhere inbetween facism and communism? It's not going to be considered tolerant, I know that much...

What we have now is a half measure: an outward denouncing of sexual malpractise by legislating against prostitution (whilst accepting strip clubs and hardcore porn which creates the urge and facilitates the abuse of children), as behind closed doors middle aged men can imprison their daughters in dungeons and make sex slaves of them, and the majority of rapists roam free. Something is going wrong in society and and true rogue element is not being challenged.

There's a saying that goes, 'better the devil you know', the reason being that if you understand your enemy you're more likely to figure out a way of inlfluencing and/or overpowering them. Bringing prostitution 'in house' will enable us to understand it better as a societal phenomenon, whilst offering the prostitutes themselves a basic degree of healthcare and physical protection - including freedom from pimps. If they are permitted to operate within the bounds of society they will no longer be ostracised and left on the outskirts, which makes it harder for them to ever get back in. The present system forces them to remain part of the criminal underworld, where they are less likely to benefit from positive influences or figure out alternative paths to take through life....

Hey, if it were up to me, prnography would be illegal (And I am always mystified at the silence of the feminists at pornography)! anf any strip club would be shut down.