Evidence for God from Science

Judah wrote:OK, here it is, Thinker.

I was aware of that, I think I was thinking something different. Nevermind. I think it is just another coincidence.

That is a terrifying picture, Judah. Yet who can deny it's beautiful as well. I just love how God paints in the sky.

I also don't like to read into things, but it struck me when I remembered I had been wanting something to happen to that city. First time I read into anything of that sort, even though I think of it happening to places occassionally. Who's to know the mind of God except if it were to be revealed? But I'm putting my chips on this one. It's a natural response to question, "Why?" and I believe it'll get some people thinking.

I heard the mayor of New Orleans say that if you say the name "New Orleans," all around the globe people would know what city you're talking about. And you're right Judah- it's known for having lax morals, (namely Mardi Gras, but others too,) and superstition. Isn't it the Voodoo capital of America or something? Reports of hauntings abound. It was a hot-bed of demonic activity, and I'm not afraid to say it. Aside from the tradgey, frankly I'm glad it was cleaned out.

However, I've never been there and am not an expert, and I fully acknowledge that.

Kateliz, I have been there many times. It's a poor city, and yes, it's a haven for promiscuity and black arts like voodoo, but that is only a relatively small part of the town. The suburbs are pretty much like other places in the US. It was partially founded by pirates though!

kateliz wrote:That is a terrifying picture, Judah. Yet who can deny it's beautiful as well. I just love how God paints in the sky.

I also don't like to read into things, but it struck me when I remembered I had been wanting something to happen to that city. First time I read into anything of that sort, even though I think of it happening to places occassionally. Who's to know the mind of God except if it were to be revealed? But I'm putting my chips on this one. It's a natural response to question, "Why?" and I believe it'll get some people thinking.

I heard the mayor of New Orleans say that if you say the name "New Orleans," all around the globe people would know what city you're talking about. And you're right Judah- it's known for having lax morals, (namely Mardi Gras, but others too,) and superstition. Isn't it the Voodoo capital of America or something? Reports of hauntings abound. It was a hot-bed of demonic activity, and I'm not afraid to say it. Aside from the tradgey, frankly I'm glad it was cleaned out.

However, I've never been there and am not an expert, and I fully acknowledge that.

I agree, many things are demonic in New Orleans, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that it was God. I read an article that draws disturbing parallels between other places that disasters have happened. The way the world is acting, if I was God, I would have to let punishment happen, people need to learn, even if I am a loving God, a loving God still needs to teach his children. It is a pity people have died, but things like this must happen. If God says no to something and continues to say no, and we go against Him, He has the authority to let this happen.

Thinker, there was nothing mysterious... I was meaning only the pole.

Kate, I have visited New Orleans, and also Pass Christian, Biloxi, Gulfport, Mobile and all of those places so devasted by Katrina. I have spent a lot of time in the USA, in 48 out of 50 states. New Orleans was certainly a very "colourful" kind of place and if you have read any of John Grisham's novels which are based in those places, you will get an idea of what happens underneath the dubious attractiveness of ethnic multiplicity. Although they were fiction, he was a practising lawyer before he began writing.

August, there are a lot of prayers coming from "Down Under" and the USA does have friends despite the fact that it gets hugely criticized for whatever it does. Human compassion can cross oceans and time zones and we all feel for those who hurt and are in need.

I particularly liked the area around Tulane University. It was a very pleasant leafy suburb and we spent an enjoyable time there. It is hard to imagine all that under water...

In fact, it is hard to look at those photos coming through of the obliteration all along that coast area. We keep thinking of the places where we stayed, and now thinking that they are nothing more than piles of flattened rubble, no longer existing.... it is hard to take it all in.

August, I'm glad we have someone here to put reality on the face of this city which is always portrayed a certain way. I believe it is much the same way in San Fransico, a place where I have been. You have your Painted Ladies, (those skinny Victorian houses everyone knows of,) your suburian neighborhoods, and then you have a handful of streets downtown littered with homosexual propoganda and declarations of pride and acceptance. Those streets actually had rainbow banners all up and down them on city street posts! Then there were window displays of "gay pride" paraphenalia, one including the lower part of a male dummy from a department store wearing a Speedo. It kinda makes you go, "Huh???" And then you can't help but cringe and shudder and look away.

Thinker, I'm very glad to hear someone dare to face God's Hand. I believe we have an obligation as Christians to recognize how God's working around us. If God had a reason for doing this, Christians should know it and not shy away from it. Kudos for bravery on this, Brian! Let's just hope our going out on a limb, (even if it's a short, sturdy one,) was not a bad idea!

GULF COAST (ANS) -- Responses to the devastation and destruction of Hurricane Katrina are beginning to pour into the offices of relief organizations and newsrooms across the country. They range from the prophetic to the practical.

Staff at Calvary Chapel in Jerusalem, Israel, comment that starting Wednesday, August 31, New Orleans was to have launched its Official Southern Decadence (GAY) festival (through Sept. 5th).

An e-mail received by ASSIST News Service (ANS) from the Calvary Chapel office in Israel states: "Webster's dictionary describes Decadence as "The state of being degenerate in mental or moral qualities."

It adds: "A lot of hard work and promotion took place for this festival and then, Katrina!"

The e-mail continues: "Yet today you will be hard pressed to hear anything in the media about this since Katrina. Katrina may go down in history as having a harder effect on the U.S. then September 11. Many are wondering why this catastrophe has even happened? Some will ask if this is Satan's work and some will speculate if this is God's wrath of judgment on a time of decadence.

"Not coincidently, this week at Calvary Chapel Jerusalem we are studying the Olivet discourse in Mathew 24. The very warnings that Jesus gave to His disciples concerning the signs of the times at the end of the age are now daily Headline news.

"While the truth rejecting world is now facing terrorism, natural disaster, pestilence and poverty at unprecedented levels, still there are 'multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision.' Oh how we need to wake up and be faithful Watchmen, warning the lost to repent and escape His coming judgment! 'For all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows,' (Matt 24:6-8)."

The e-mail says: "Just last week in Israel almost 10,000 people lost their jobs and their homes. Today we see the effects on people who were disregarded as unimportant. They walked away while their enemy ravished their homeland. Today they too are in shock! They ask why and what now! They also wonder is this God's doing?

"This we do know, 'God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we are not to fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; though the waters thereof roar and be troubled,' (Psa 46: 1-3)."

"This week it is our desire to commit our prayer needs on the people who are suffering emotionally and physically. Our prayers go out for the grandparents and parents who are affected by Katrina, not to mention all the little children!"

The Calvary Chapel staff add: "We are praying, we are deeply concerned and grieved about the onset of Katrina. For the people have been ravished by the things they can not control. They too do not know their future. They too wonder why and what is next? We pray that they will be saved, 'for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.' For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame,' (Rom 10:10)."

Here are some appalling parallels of the Gaza Expulsion and Hurricane Katrina: http://www.forzion.com/report/images/kat_2.jpg.

The e-mail form Calvary Chapel Jerusalem continues: "Recent comments on the FOX NEWS Channel eerily parallel what has just happened in Gaza. One commentator referred to the inhabitants of New Orleans and said, 'It must be an emotional experience to walk away from their houses and not know if they will be able to live in them again.' That is exactly what has transpired here this past week for Gaza's Jewish population.

"Another commentator said that most of all the wooden structures in New Orleans will be destroyed. Nearly all of the structures in Gaza's Jewish communities and farms have been destroyed."

CC Jerusalem says: "Ivor Van Heeden, deputy director of Louisiana State University's Hurricane Center, recently said on FOX that there is a high probability that the hurricane will loosen many of the coffins in New Orleans and that corpses will be loosened and moved from their resting places. One of the three top items on Israel's news tonight was the forced removal of Jewish graves from the Gaza Strip and the transportation of the corpses for reburial in other parts of Israel."

The CC Jerusalem staff add: "Whereas Gaza was placed under a state of emergency as its 8,000 residents were evacuated, now New Orleans has been given orders for a mandatory evacuation of nearly 500,000 people.

"Whereas many Israeli Jews from Gaza are in temporary refugee camps and tent cities, there is talk of up to one million refugees needing to be settled in temporary camps in the Louisiana and Mississippi area.

The CC Jerusalem staff conclude: "It seems that the US and Israel are joined together this week by some measure of tragedy. We grieve for this, and especially for the apparent links between these two events. We weep with those that weep and mourn with those that mourn. Pray for America's leadership, that their spiritual eyes and ears may be attentive to the God of Israel who stirs up the waves so that they roar. Let us not shut our ears if He is speaking. And let us handle with respect the people whom He has chosen as the apple of His eye."

ANOTHER VIEW FROM ABROAD

In a statement from the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem, Malcolm Hedding, Executive Director, says: "It is not time to pronounce judgment but to repent."

"As usual, the judgment pundits have rushed to link the tragic events of Hurricane Katrina with the Gaza withdrawal. America is being judged because of its foreign policy and pressure that is being directed towards Israel. This is the thesis and it is wrong!

"To be sure, America is being judged and there is no doubt that Katrina is evidence of this. However, to jump from this position to a linkage with Israel is not only breathtaking but pure presumption."

"A CHALLENGE TO THE HEART"

Hedding writes: "This temptation to link judgment with particular events is not new. The Disciples of Jesus were on the same spirit. For them a tragedy like the town of Siloam falling upon people and killing them was evidence of special sin and judgment. Jesus firmly rebuked this simplistic analysis (Luke 13:1-5). In fact, He challenged their heart attitude and warned them that judgment hangs over all men and that as a consequence they need to repent.

"How strange it is that sometimes evangelicals rush headlong into the wish for retribution. In my view, this is no expression of the will, purpose and love of God and we should be very careful about making these sweeping claims!

"For sure, as I stated, Katrina is evidence of judgment. This is warning to all of us and to all of our nations! It is for American prophets in the church to interpret these events in the nation. We will stand alongside our American friends and pray for them and seek by all means to hear their pain. Just as we are doing with the settlers who have left Gaza."

"A TIME TO CRY OUT FOR MERCY"

Hedding continues: "It must be noted that the USA is and has been a very special friend to Israel. This nation, in the face of global antagonism, has guaranteed Israel's existence with words and deeds. It is not for us to presume that because of disengagement she has now been judged.

"If this is the case then what will happen to Israel? Through her national democratic process the nation voted for disengagement. Should we now expect similar chaos and judgment in her borders and what of the hundreds of nations that are openly and aggressively against everything that Israel stands for?

"No my friends, be careful. 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord,' and we should back away from playing God! It is not time to pronounce judgment but to humble ourselves, repent and call upon God for mercy. Mercy for ourselves and for all of our nations.

"Most of all, let us rise from the place of prayer and repentance to share the love of God with all who need it.

Hedding concludes with this statement: "For if we do not repent we will all likewise perish -- Jesus of Nazareth."

SOURCE: Click HERE

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

Luke 13:1-5

God sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Just be mindful of how Jesus responded to the idea that a disaster occurred because some were seen as more guilty than others.
The call to repentance has not changed whether in times of disaster or not.

And what was God's message to the victims of the recent Tsunami? Was He punishing those people for some wrong doing?

I think that if we find some kind of satisfaction from a disaster like the hurricane in New Orleans, passing judgment on the city and its people, on America, then we must look at every misfortune to hit any person, any city, and any country as judgment from God.

Other examples are the terrorist attacks on the USA, London, on Bali, in Greece; the earthquate of 1906 in San Franciso; the Hurricanes Hugo, Andrew, Camille, Carla, Betsy, Floyd, Hugo, the Great Galeston Texas hurrican disaster (Cat. 4, 6,000 deaths), etc. Not to mention the earthquakes in Iran, Japan, and elsewhere. Was this the result of the punishment of God?

Is God angry with all of His people? Does He kill the innocent along with the guilty?

I have been to New Orleans several times. The area in the French Quarter around Bourbon Street is decadent. Is this the only city that exhibits decadence in the whole world? Couldn't we say that most large cities over the world exhibit some form of decadence? Is God going to punish all the people in those cities with calamities?

I had some drinks in N.O., saw a strip show and even bought a voodoo doll (all in fun). Do you think God will punish me? Do I deserve it?

I prefer to think of God as looking at the people of New Orleans through compassionate and loving eyes, concerned for their welfare.

History of New Orleans: http://gatewayno.com/history/history.html


Shalom

I agree with Judah and Christian2. And to add further, I'm of the opinion that God has forgiven the sins of all people through Christ, whether past, present or future. Such a concept probably goes against what most Christians are taught within churches, especially Evangelical churches where it is often taught one must give their lives to Christ before being forgiven. Yet, it was Scripture that forced me to believe this, and this is what we are to proclaim as good news! What news is there to proclaim if the news is yet to happen? And what good news is it if we proclaim that all are forgiven, oh but there's a catch... (for anyone further interested in this perhaps revolutionary Christian concept, I'd recommend the article Is Forgiveness Conditional OR Unconditional?)

Now if this is the case, then unlike Sodom and Gomorrah which were pre-Christ, all on Earth have God's mercy today because of Christ, and are given the opportunity to return to their heavenly Father despite their sin (as was the prodigal son). So what does this mean if N.O. were totally immoral, or New York, or perhaps just Americans in general? Well for me it would mean that God reserves His judgement upon the wicked, and the parable of the weeds supports my conclusion:

• "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'" (Matthew 13:28-30)

Therefore it seems to me that God is not going to judge and punish the wicked now, but rather God is waiting until the end where He will separate the wicked from the righteous who are in Christ (Matthew 13:49-50).

So although it seems quite mild here, let us not digress into such a thing as people are being punished because of wickedness. I am aware that there are many "Christians" even churches who think and say such things. Yet Scripture says all are sinning and are worthy of death, but are justified freely through Christ. For Christians to therefore continually proclaim such atrocities as God's judgement is for me just so distasteful, that I don't know how any Christian who understands God's grace could say such a thing.

Kurieuo.

Thanks for your post Kurieuo. Perhaps you sensed that I was a bit ticked off. Everyone is pointing fingers now, trying to put the blame for the magnitude of this disaster on someone--President Bush is the favorite so far.

Judah's quote of Luke 13:1-5 was right on.

Shalom

Okay, but one thing, no one knows Gods' intentions in the first place unless they are a part of Him or possibly with Him. I can personally tell you that God revealed to me to read Matthew chapter 24 when I didn't know what that chapter was on during daytime, the thought just popped into my mind. I have read all of Matthew before, but this happened like a month or so later from reading it. Out of the whole book, all good stuff, God chose for me to know about Matthew chapter 24, and why? Because before, I always had and still have feelings that Jesus is coming.

Now, I realize that there are just as equally sinful spots on the nation or even the planet as New Orleans. I still hold to my word that we are in the beginning of the end:

Matthew 24: 32-35

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it (Or he) is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation (Or race) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

I have many other reasons to provide that we are in the end, however I am not really permitted to mention the work being done showing this, as a patient of my dad's is very reliable in his bible work uncovering the text behind the text, which is NOT Bible Codes which I don't trust or believe in, and neither does this patient.

I also have had other revelations revealed to me, but I wont go into it because I don't want to be prideful of it and go "haha, look what I received and you didn't!", that is mean.

Thinker wrote:

Ellen Johnson, President Of American Atheists wrote:“We're getting reports of how some religion-based 'aid' groups are trying to fly evangelists into the stricken areas and how U.S. Army chaplains are carrying bibles -- not food or water -- to 'comfort' people,” Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheist, said in a statement.

“People need material aid, medical care and economic support -- not prayers and preaching,” she said.

Ellen Johnson is right EXCEPT the part on prayers and preaching. She needs to be slapped upside the head for her own stupidity. If she has these views, why doesn't she go down there and help? Oh, I forgot, she is a heartless, cold person who just likes to say things but not put her words into action. After all, she is the president of the nations largest atheist organization. Shouldn't any large organization that makes claims like this help like the large religious organizations that actually care? I think so. The disgust with atheists!!!

MSNBC.com

Some evacuees see religious message in Katrina
Across three states, survivors weigh links among faith, sin and the storm

Reuters
Updated: 4:05 p.m. ET Sept. 4, 2005

HOUSTON - In the last week, Joseph Brant lost his apartment, walked by scores of dead in the streets, traversed pools of toxic water and endured an arduous journey to escape the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in his hometown New Orleans.

On Sunday, he was praising the Lord, saying the ordeal was a test that ended up dispelling his lifelong distrust of white people and setting his life on a new course. He said he hitched a ride Friday in a van driven by a group of white folks.

“Before this whole thing I had a complex about white people; this thing changed me forever,” said Brant, 36, a truck driver who, like many of the refugees receiving public assistance in Houston, Texas, is black.

“It was a spiritual experience for me, man,” he said of the aftermath of a catastrophe al Qaida-linked Web sites called evidence of the “wrath of God” striking an arrogant America.

Brant was one of the evacuees across Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi who gave thought to religion Sunday, almost a week after the floods changed their lives, perhaps forever.

For one, 'the work of Satan'
At the Astrodome in Houston, where 16,000 refugees received food and shelter, Rose McNeely took the floods as a sign from God to move away from New Orleans, where she said her two grown children had been killed in past years in gunfights.

“I lost everything I had in New Orleans,” she said as she shared a cigarette with a friend. “He brought me here because he knows.”

Gerald Greenwood, 55, collected a free Bible earlier in the morning, but sat watching a science fiction television program above the stands in an enclosed stadium once home to Houston's baseball and football teams. “This is the work of Satan right here,” he said of the floods.

The Bible was one of the few books many of the refugees had among their possessions. On Friday, several Jehovah's Witnesses walked the floor of the Astrodome, where thousands of cots were set up, to offer their services.

For another, the wages of sin
On Sunday, the Salvation Army conducted an outside religious service that included songs such as “What a Friend We Have in Jesus.”

“Natural disaster is caused by the sin in the world,” said Maj. John Jones, area commander for the Salvation Army, who led the service. “The acts of God are what happens afterwards ... all the good that happens.”

“God made all this happen for a reason. This city has been going to hell in a handbasket spiritually,” Tim Washington, 42, said at New Orleans' Superdome Saturday as he waited to be evacuated.

“If we can spend billions of dollars chasing after [Osama] bin Laden, can't we get guns and drugs off the street?”, he asked. Washington said he stole a boat last Monday and he and a friend, using wooden fence posts as oars, delivered about 200 people to the shelter. “The sheriff's department stood across the street and did nothing,” he added.

The Salvation Army's Jones was one of many trying to comfort victims in Sunday services across several states.

What God demands
At St. Aloysius Catholic Church in Baton Rouge, several hundred local parishioners and storm survivors attended the Sunday service. “I wish we could take your broken hearts and give you ours,” Rev. Donald Blanchard told the gathering.

In addition to consoling storm victims, the church's lead pastor, Jerald Burns, said Katrina's tragedy needed to be a rallying cry for parishioners, church leaders and government leaders to help the needy.

“It's not what God is asking of us,” Burns said. “It is what God is demanding of us.”

Some people walked out of the church in tears in mid-service.

Churches in many states have taken in evacuees and organized aid for people who in many cases lost everything they had in the storm. But at least some bristled at the role of religion in helping the afflicted.

“We're getting reports of how some religion-based 'aid' groups are trying to fly evangelists into the stricken areas and how U.S. Army chaplains are carrying bibles -- not food or water -- to 'comfort' people,” Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheist, said in a statement.

“People need material aid, medical care and economic support -- not prayers and preaching,” she said.

© 2005 MSNBC.com

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9206991/

I think that one of the difficulties we have in dealing with this issue is that, in our common language, we talk about earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, hurricanes, huge fires, and all of these things as "acts of God" - as though he deliberately did them or caused them.

Although God is our Creator Father and this world is His creation, I prefer to see these as natural events - acts of nature.
This is not to deny that God is the creator of all things, but in omitting to see these events as the interaction of elements of nature, we are in danger of adding interpretations that may be fallacious.

To me, the term "acts of God" should more properly be applied to those supernatural acts - the virgin birth, Jesus walking on the water, the resurrection of Jesus. These are the kinds of acts that occur outside of nature in the usual sense. These are acts of God where God has truly intervened in the way the world normally works.

The idea that we are already forgiven by God is not at all revolutionary to my way of thinking. That is what I have always understood from the wellknown verse John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son..." After all, the verse does not say "For God so loved only some of the world..."

Our forgiveness is already there, for all of us, Christ having already paid the price for us all. It simply remains for folks to repent and accept it.

The prodigal son returned to the joyous welcome of his father who greeted him with open arms. The father had already forgiven him in order to be able to welcome him so.

That is an excellent article that Kurieuo linked to, and well worth a read.

Thinker, how about the following for an idea?

All these natural disasters that are taking such a huge toll and affecting us all around the globe are like the contractions or birth pains of a woman in labour.
As happens in labour, the contractions get increasingly stronger, and closer and closer together, as the end of her labour draws near.
So these kind of things will happen, and happen again and again, with greater frequency and impact as the fulfilment of time comes about, culminating eventually (and we do not know exactly when) in the return of Our Lord.

Personally, I don't think we need to put any other interpretation on the fact of Katrina than just that.