Evidence for God from Science

waynes world wrote:there is no evidence that any resurection happened at any time in the past.

I agree. I never said that it did. The resurrection is a future event.

waynes world wrote:Also I have yet to have any preterist explain how any of the plagues in Revelation could have happened in any time in the past.

It would take some time, but it has been done. Which of the plagues would you suggest did not happen?

waynes world wrote:The Corinthians were preterists too and Paul addressed that issue directly in i Cor 15. He is telling them that the rapture hadn't happened yet. All the commentaries I have seen say that that was the concern of the early church. The rapture is either pre-trib or post trib but it definately has not happened yet.

Paul does not mention the "rapture". He tells the Corinthians that there will be a resurrection. This is what the Corinthians were denying.

Paul says there has to be a rapture, what's so hard to understand about that? It hasn't happened yet. We don't know when it will happen. If even Jesus doesn't know how can any human being know? The beast will be able to deceive the elect so if we have to go through the tribulation we who believe are in a lot of danger. Thats why the pre-trib is the best way to look at 1 Cor 15 and if you don't agree thats fine. I hope its okay if I believe what I do. I get the feeling its not okay.

waynes world wrote:Paul says there has to be a rapture, what's so hard to understand about that?

Where does Paul say this? Give exact verses.

waynes world wrote:It hasn't happened yet. We don't know when it will happen. If even Jesus doesn't know how can any human being know? The beast will be able to deceive the elect so if we have to go through the tribulation we who believe are in a lot of danger.

The Beast and the Tribulation have come and gone. And Christians did go through it (Peter and Paul were killed in it.)

waynes world wrote:Thats why the pre-trib is the best way to look at 1 Cor 15 and if you don't agree thats fine. I hope its okay if I believe what I do. I get the feeling its not okay.

This isn't a matter affecting one's salvation, but a false doctrine is a false doctrine. And the rapture is a false doctrine.

You may be interested in reading the origins of the rapture doctrine. It was invented by a young European women in a trance induced state and adopted by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren in the 1820's. It became a mainstay with the Scofield Reference Bible, and obtained chief popularity after Hal Lindsey's hysterical doomsday novels (Hal seems to have disappeared from the public square after taking wife #4.) Today, the "Rapture" theory is all over modern churches, but there is one place that you will not find it, and that is the Bible.

Have a good time. But both of those passages talk about the rapture, there's no denying that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. We were not predestened for wrath. Paul makes that point clear. The Tribulation is not meant for us who believe it is meant for the non-believers and especially for Israel. I think the confusion I see in Matt 24 is that Jesus is talking about those who will be saved during the tribulation, not about those who were saved before it happens. There's a big difference here. The hope we have is that we shall not all sleep but that our mortal bodies must put on the immortal. My reading of 1 Corinthins 15 is that the resurection could not have either happened in the past or after the tribulation ends. Otherwise what hope do we believers have? It doesn't sound like you offer us much of that.

OK Wayne, let's get down to the nitty gritty of these verses. No one is denying that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. The biggest difference is when it happens. You keep focusing on the need (hope) of escaping some future "tribulation" period, when Jesus clearly stated that the great tribulation would be a first century event. Neither verse mentioned says anything about a tribulation period. Again, the "change" that we will experience happens AFTER the resurrection, not before some tribulation period. 1 Thess. 4:16 clearly states that the "dead in Christ shall rise first". This, according to the Bible, happens on the "last day", not before some tribulation period.

And the fact that we are not appointed to wrath (Hell), is totally irrelevant to any pre-trib rapture doctrine.

Wayne,

Let's perform a simple Bible test. Please answer the following questions:

1.) Read John 6:39, 40, 44. When does the resurrection take place?
a. Before the Great Tribulation
b. On the Last Day

2.) Read 1 Thess. 4:16-17. When will be called up to meet Jesus?
a. Before the Great Tribulation
b. After the dead in Christ rise.

3.) Read Matthew 24:21,34. When did Jesus say that the Great Tribulation would take place.
a. After the “rapture”.
b. Within the Apostles' generation.

4.) Read Rev. 1:1,3. When did John say that events were going to happen?
a. Shortly, Near.
b. In the 21st century.

5.) Read 2 Peter 3:10. What happens when Christ Returns?
a. A pre-trib rapture.
b. Heavens and Earth will be renovated.

While we are at it, please point to the scriptures that mention...
...a pre-trib rapture.
...a future world dictator.
...a third Jewish temple.
...a Russian Invasion of Israel.
...a cashless society, computer chip, killer bees, nuclear missles, or any of the other nonsense that passes for "Bible Prophecy" these days.

That should clarify what the Bible says about the end times. Simple huh? No Pre-trib Rapture.

The rapture has to be pre trib otherwise Paul is lying in 1 Cor 15:51! We shall not all sleep but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Is that a lie? Paul says we are not predestened to wrath. We have a "blessed hope" according to Titus 3:7 Rev 18:4 says we will not share in any of the plagues. It sure looks to me like a pre-trib rapture. What hope is there for believers if your version is true? There is none.

waynes world wrote:The rapture has to be pre trib otherwise Paul is lying in 1 Cor 15:51! We shall not all sleep but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Is that a lie?

After the resurrection Wayne. The tribulation is over. How many times do I have to keep answering the same questions over and over?

waynes world wrote:Paul says we are not predestened to wrath.

What does this have to do with a pre-trib rapture? His wrath is Hell. To escape from that is indeed a blessing.

waynes world wrote:We have a "blessed hope" according to Titus 3:7

Yes. I am looking forward to my resurrection. What does this have to do with a pre-trib rapture?

waynes world wrote:Rev 18:4 says we will not share in any of the plagues.

What does God commanding His people to leave Jerusalem (See Luke 21:20-22) have to do with us or a "pre-trib" rapture?

waynes world wrote:It sure looks to me like a pre-trib rapture. What hope is there for believers if your version is true? There is none.

Our hope is in our resurrection and our eternity with Christ (I believe that this is only the fourth time I've had to answer this question).

PS. You still did not answer my questions. Please do.

Wayne,

I've answered your questions (at least 3 or 4 times). Please answer mine. See below.

puritan lad wrote:Wayne,

Let's perform a simple Bible test. Please answer the following questions:

1.) Read John 6:39, 40, 44. When does the resurrection take place?
a. Before the Great Tribulation
b. On the Last Day

2.) Read 1 Thess. 4:16-17. When will be called up to meet Jesus?
a. Before the Great Tribulation
b. After the dead in Christ rise.

3.) Read Matthew 24:21,34. When did Jesus say that the Great Tribulation would take place.
a. After the “rapture”.
b. Within the Apostles' generation.

4.) Read Rev. 1:1,3. When did John say that events were going to happen?
a. Shortly, Near.
b. In the 21st century.

5.) Read 2 Peter 3:10. What happens when Christ Returns?
a. A pre-trib rapture.
b. Heavens and Earth will be renovated.

While we are at it, please point to the scriptures that mention...
...a pre-trib rapture.
...a future world dictator.
...a third Jewish temple.
...a Russian Invasion of Israel.
...a cashless society, computer chip, killer bees, nuclear missles, or any of the other nonsense that passes for "Bible Prophecy" these days.

That should clarify what the Bible says about the end times. Simple huh? No Pre-trib Rapture.

puritan lad wrote:Wayne,

I've answered your questions (at least 3 or 4 times). Please answer mine. See below.

puritan lad wrote:Wayne,

Let's perform a simple Bible test. Please answer the following questions:

1.) Read John 6:39, 40, 44. When does the resurrection take place?
a. Before the Great Tribulation
b. On the Last Day

2.) Read 1 Thess. 4:16-17. When will be called up to meet Jesus?
a. Before the Great Tribulation
b. After the dead in Christ rise.

3.) Read Matthew 24:21,34. When did Jesus say that the Great Tribulation would take place.
a. After the “rapture”.
b. Within the Apostles' generation.

4.) Read Rev. 1:1,3. When did John say that events were going to happen?
a. Shortly, Near.
b. In the 21st century.

5.) Read 2 Peter 3:10. What happens when Christ Returns?
a. A pre-trib rapture.
b. Heavens and Earth will be renovated.

While we are at it, please point to the scriptures that mention...
...a pre-trib rapture.
...a future world dictator.
...a third Jewish temple.
...a Russian Invasion of Israel.
...a cashless society, computer chip, killer bees, nuclear missles, or any of the other nonsense that passes for "Bible Prophecy" these days.

That should clarify what the Bible says about the end times. Simple huh? No Pre-trib Rapture.

I am familiar with your questions and I thought I made it clear that I believe in a pre-trib rapture and have shown several scriptures that prove the pre-trib position.You don't like any of my responses so to you any aanswer thats different from you is the same thing as a non-answer. Why do you play that game? I get the same thing from the secularists on the Sean Hannity website whenever I talk about any subject a liberal doesn't agree with he calls my answer a non-answer. Do you have any idea how offended I feel about that? I have made my position clear. But you have not. You jump from the preterist view to the post trib thread. You remind me of James' passage that talks about a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. I would appreciate it if you would stop making it a salvation issue which you are clearly doing. Do you think God will keep us out of heaven because we believe in the pre-trib view? I have read the Seventh Day Adventist works and thats what they believe. I would hope your not one of them.

puritan lad wrote:

waynes world wrote:The rapture has to be pre trib otherwise Paul is lying in 1 Cor 15:51! We shall not all sleep but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Is that a lie?

After the resurrection Wayne. The tribulation is over. How many times do I have to keep answering the same questions over and over?

waynes world wrote:Paul says we are not predestened to wrath.

What does this have to do with a pre-trib rapture? His wrath is Hell. To escape from that is indeed a blessing.

waynes world wrote:We have a "blessed hope" according to Titus 3:7

Yes. I am looking forward to my resurrection. What does this have to do with a pre-trib rapture?

waynes world wrote:Rev 18:4 says we will not share in any of the plagues.

What does God commanding His people to leave Jerusalem (See Luke 21:20-22) have to do with us or a "pre-trib" rapture?

waynes world wrote:It sure looks to me like a pre-trib rapture. What hope is there for believers if your version is true? There is none.

Our hope is in our resurrection and our eternity with Christ (I believe that this is only the fourth time I've had to answer this question).

PS. You still did not answer my questions. Please do.

Every one of those verses point to a pre-trib rapture. Thats the best view of the holy scriptures. If there is no rapture we are dead in our sins.

If there is no rapture we are dead in our sins.

I lean towards a pre trib view too, but this statement astounds me. the only thing that keeps us dead in our sins is unbelief.

FFC wrote:

If there is no rapture we are dead in our sins.

I lean towards a pre trib view too, but this statement astounds me. the only thing that keeps us dead in our sins is unbelief.

Agreed

Edit: Undecided on the Rapture as of yet but Agree with your last statement

FFC wrote:I lean towards a pre trib view too...

Do you mind if I ask why? No one has given me a single scripture to support this yet.

puritan lad wrote:

FFC wrote:I lean towards a pre trib view too...

Do you mind if I ask why? No one has given me a single scripture to support this yet.

As I say I'm leaning towards it but I'm not as dogmatic as I used to be. I think the problem is that is the only view i've ever been exposed to. I have more questions than answers like:

1. if the scenario in Revelations is not the great tribulation, what is it? Certainly nothing that horrific ever happened in 70 AD, symbolic language or not.

2. In Matthew 24 Jesus said that prior to this tribulation everything would be business as usual, but then out of the blue some people are taken and some left standing still (don't worry, I'm not going to start singing "I wish we'd all been ready" weren't those movies cheesy?)...anyway, I doubt anybody was caught off guard in such a dramatic manner in 70 AD. They would have heard the rumble of the horses and chariots, and the war cries from miles away.

3. In 1st thessalonians 5 the dead and alive in Christ are taken, caught up in the air to meet the Lord in the air. This can't be the end of the world yet can it? Christ doesn't even touch down.

4. If like Jesus said there is going to be a great tribulation like never before or after, then wouldn't He make provision for his saints?