The Origin of Species

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

I do not assume religion is correct, I have no religion. Religion is based on beliefs of the unknown. I know my beliefs are real because I can see them.

What about your belief that you know your beliefs are true?

Kurieuo

I'd also point out the biased definition..."belief in the unknown"-condemns everyone but himself, because supposedly his truth comes from science, and there's NO faith there, noooope, none at all, yes that's lots of sarcasm, don't need any faith to believe that...

[Kurieuo]

Re-reading what I wrote, I actually meant to say in reply to SoccerfreakAB2 saying he knows his beliefs are real because he can see them: "What about your belief that you know your beliefs are real because you see them?"

In what way does Soccerfreak "see" this belief? And to add further, should we all pitty the blind who can't see? For surely they couldn't know anything was true by this criteria.

Kurieuo

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Oh, that's funny, because by his definition of what makes something non-faith based, but REAL...his thoughts aren't real :-p

[Believer]

And what exaclty makes creation so valid? The whole hocus pocus involved in making EVERYTHING? How exactly is everything made? How, when, and why? You can have your own guesses, but according to your beliefs, we'll truly never know. It's all about interpretation with religion. Not a whole lot of explanation, just random ways to make how we began. What exactly is there to be learned from "God did it?" All you know is that he did it, and that's it. Once again, no explanations. At least evolution is close to truly explaining our existence and how species survive and die.

Okay, so with science, you don't think God created evolution? We know God created because it says in the Bible, and whatever way He did, is up to Him. Science is always evolving, sometimes reaching a conclusion, most of the time, not. This will continue forever until Christ returns. You see the fossil record for dinosaurs and you can see that bone structures were nearly complete thus having a good way of knowing what a dinosaur may have looked like, where as human origins and it's fossil record is fragmented with very limited bone structures, making it the scientists job to mold what they THINK is true out of the bones, their own interpretation what we would look like. Until the day comes when a complete bone structure is found for human origins, evolution in terms of Darwin and what have you is speculation and fantasy. The question for you is: Where does everything come from if there was no matter in the first place, everything a complete and utter void? Creationism and/or Intelligent Design is valid, it is the godless scientists that only look through their worldview and reject anything that would involve God.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Yes, and your entire life revolves around religion, even if you are not religious, whether you like it or not. Churches are everywhere, symbols, Bibles and much biblical literature being sold in bookstores, people that do have faith in God walking the public streets, days, months being religious, U.S. currency, etc... Remember that America is very strong in religion. It's people like you who stomp around, being activists, trying to get every piece of religious object rejected from a place. EVERYWHERE you go, there is religious stuff.

Who said we are skeptics of science? WE ARE skeptical of science that says we evolve from one form of an animal to another and another and another until we become human. How have we interfered with building new cars, building better infrastructures, building better computers, etc...?

Okay, so prove you really exist. How do you know for sure? Prove to us that you are not living in a dream world, that being in a dream capable of having dreams. Prove that. How do you know, if everything SEEMS to be so real, yet it might not be?

Hello? This is a reality check... How does everything exist when in that void, nothing existed? How does something come from nothing? Prove it. God sets out a playing field, our Earth, to study life and everything that earth inhabits, it is our playing ground. Yet how can you deny God exists when things pop into existence from nothing? Whether it was 6 days, 10,000 years, millions of years, or billions of years, science is still primitive as we continue to advance science every day. Also, I wouldn't take television programs, like Discovery Channel seriously, as I have seen MANY shows on different stations full of biased lies. You would expect the Darwinists to be so because they find so many fragmented limited body bone structures, so they just piece together to see what they think fits. A concept, an idea, they will turn something into what they believe it was when there isn't proof of what it initially was, they jump to conclusions. 150+ years later, and still no finds for the missing link of origins when the initial chart concept was conceived, raises eyebrows and suspicion.

And yet you prefer Christian websites and newsletters to gain information over the Discovery Channel, a public television station?

I exist, because my brain tells me I exist. There is no proof needed. I exist. My brain says so. If I was forever in a dream world, I'd still be existing, because I'm dreaming.

Sure, in lots of cities there are churches. Not "everywhere I go." I don't know where you live, but in Michigan there's maybe 2 churches in every city. Not bad. But definitely not everywhere. There are evolutionary books and atheists walking the streets too. Go figure. Am I really an activist? Or contemplatist? I'm thinking and talking, not acting upon my beliefs, something theists rather enjoy doing when they go on missions to foreign countries or march to protest abortion.

What exactly is the difference among the science of Darwin and the scientific advancements of such things like cars and planes? Both dealt with visions of knowledge; both dealt with skeptics who rejected it could be done, or was ever possible; both had holes in the ideas, that were fixed. Evolution is just that much larger of a task, especially when it ruins religious belief, considering there are 2 billion catholics in the world, who would feel ridiculously stupid after they are proved wrong.

How does something come from nothing? I have no idea. But I refuse to belief some God came from nothing, like you so contradicted yourself. And if you say God always lasted, then I could just say the universe always lasted. You are scared of not knowing answers, while that's what actually excites me--so one day, we can find them. Your laziness to accept the simple answers in life is evident. You want others to do the hard work to find the truths to our existence. So be it, stand back and watch it happen, just don't get in their way by telling them they are wrong.

Maybe you've never heard of the findings of the following:

Homo erectus
Homo habilis
Australopithecus
Neanderthal Man
Archaeopteryx

They are all reasons why evolution is taught in schools. For once, just pick up a book on evolution and read it with an open mind, if yours isn't too closed up yet.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

You can't see origin of species, you cant see speciation, you can't see the big bang. You believe evolution without seeing it, just as I believe in God having never seen him. You keep refering to evolutionary conjecture as fact when it is actually a theory among many that has no real scientific support.

Second point. I thank you for supporting creation by pointing out the striking similarity of the chimps DNA to ours. The dissimilarity of the abilities of man and chimps with respect to logic and reason easily lends evidence to the dualistic philosophy that points to physical matter and a spiritual matter. Since the chimp and the human is so similar in DNA it could be that the abilities of man that far far surpass anything in the animal kingdom could be that spiritual escence that God breather into us when he created us.

I can see australopithecus, homo habilis, homo erectus, archaeopteryx, and neanderthal man. I can see the comparisons made and the time periods they lived in. I can see that some species are extinct due to certain mutations, or some species have benefitted from weird, but profittable mutations. I can see my evidence. Can you see yours? Besides, of course, in that closed little mind of yours?

Yeah, it could also be that God hated chimps and thought the female of the human race was more pretty, so he made us smarter, right? Who knows with religion, we can pretty much make our own crazy interpretations until science comes and wreckes them.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Religion is based on beliefs of the unknown. I know my beliefs are real because I can see them . . . Thus you have faith, while I have certainty. I have no problem with that, I'm just trying to explain to you why evolution is such a popular theory.

First of all, if we are physically similar to chimps, you'd expect that...common design fits the facts as well as common descent. The relationship is neutral-it doesn't back up anyone's claims.

Design can say whatever it wants to. If it wants a pink bunny to create everything, then so be it. You don't need evidence for design. You do however need to PROVE that evolution is correct, or even a theory as the thread states. So I told you that we are close to chimps in DNA, evidence for my claim.

You can't see origin of species, you cant see speciation, you can't see the big bang. You believe evolution without seeing it, just as I believe in God having never seen him. You keep refering to evolutionary conjecture as fact when it is actually a theory among many that has no real scientific support.

Second point. I thank you for supporting creation by pointing out the striking similarity of the chimps DNA to ours. The dissimilarity of the abilities of man and chimps with respect to logic and reason easily lends evidence to the dualistic philosophy that points to physical matter and a spiritual matter. Since the chimp and the human is so similar in DNA it could be that the abilities of man that far far surpass anything in the animal kingdom could be that spiritual escence that God breather into us when he created us.

You can't see the Colorado river create the Grand Canyon, you can't see where the Moon will be next week, you can't see where the train will be in two hours, you can't see Jesus Christ on the cross. If we follow your logic then knowledge cannot span more than the life of a single man.

If you think that the only work on evolution is that of Darwin, then there is a whole world waiting to be opened up to you. Countless pages of research, experimentation, observation, and theorizing. Arguments as heated as this took place in the scientific arena.

As to how they will be regarded because of your beleifs, that is up to you.

[Byblos]

I always like to simplify things (although that strategy sometimes backfires). In any case, here's my spin on this whole issue.

The argument so far has always been, evolution is correct, no God is correct, as if the 2 are mutually exclusive. We tend to forget sometimes that this very website was founded on the principle of harmonizing God and science.

Forget irreducible complexity or CSI or cascading blood clots or any of that scientific stuff and let's go for a moment with the novel idea that God sparked the creation of the universe as we know it and intended for evolution to take place exactly as it did. All of a sudden, all the arguments for or against evolution fall apart. And since the existence of God cannot be disproved, it cannot be ruled out either.

Now where does that leave us in terms of differences? We are left with 2 simple possibilities. It is either we believe in God and the fact that he created us (through the evolutionary process) or we do not believe in God, we believe in random evolution but we have no clue as to how it all started (and that also includes aliens and the multi-verse concepts as there's no evidence for either).

For those who believe that God created us, we spend a considerable amount of time studying and following our religious beliefs. What do you think will happen to us when we die and it was proven (as atheists believe) that there is no God? Well, I submit to you that nothing will happen; we're simply dead. Yes, we've waisted our time on religion but it's not really a waste of time as through religion we became better human beings, morally, ethically, socially and so on. Now an argument can be made to the fact that we are in reality hedging our bets, and the basic answer is, you bet we are and why not? What is the alternative? Well, let's see ...

For those who do not believe in God, they are generally good, moral human beings who go about their lives just the same. The question is, what if they were proven wrong and God does really exist? What becomes of them after death?

The last question is a rhetorical one; I will let you answer it for yourselves.

As for me, I'd rather hedge my bets.

[Jbuza]

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[Jbuza]

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[AttentionKMartShoppers]

And what exaclty makes creation so valid? The whole hocus pocus involved in making EVERYTHING? How exactly is everything made? How, when, and why? You can have your own guesses, but according to your beliefs, we'll truly never know. It's all about interpretation with religion. Not a whole lot of explanation, just random ways to make how we began. What exactly is there to be learned from "God did it?" All you know is that he did it, and that's it. Once again, no explanations. At least evolution is close to truly explaining our existence and how species survive and die.

No it's not.

Yeah, you can find all tons of unevidenced [nonsense] on Christian sites these days...

So we get to the heart of it...if it does not support your biased views on your outlook on other religions and your outlook on the world in general...it's unevidenced nonsense?

And yet you prefer Christian websites and newsletters to gain information over the Discovery Channel, a public television station?

Well, it's a lot easier-I don't have to schedule time to watch the channel...for one thing-and another is that television is sensation-lots of claims made...all smoke, no fire.

I exist, because my brain tells me I exist. There is no proof needed. I exist. My brain says so. If I was forever in a dream world, I'd still be existing, because I'm dreaming.

You're taking this on faith, as I've said-if you have no PROOF of it-you take it on faith!

What exactly is the difference among the science of Darwin and the scientific advancements of such things like cars and planes? Both dealt with visions of knowledge; both dealt with skeptics who rejected it could be done, or was ever possible; both had holes in the ideas, that were fixed. Evolution is just that much larger of a task, especially when it ruins religious belief, considering there are 2 billion catholics in the world, who would feel ridiculously stupid after they are proved wrong.

Non sequitor-one is operational, one is origins science. And none back up your religious beliefs.

How does something come from nothing? I have no idea. But I refuse to belief some God came from nothing, like you so contradicted yourself. And if you say God always lasted, then I could just say the universe always lasted. You are scared of not knowing answers, while that's what actually excites me--so one day, we can find them. Your laziness to accept the simple answers in life is evident. You want others to do the hard work to find the truths to our existence. So be it, stand back and watch it happen, just don't get in their way by telling them they are wrong.

Einstein, we never said God came from something-nobody with a brain will say that EVERYTHING came from something else-but science says the universe did begin to exist, which means it had to have a cause...Stop lording your religious bias over us, you twit.

Maybe you've never heard of the findings of the following:

Homo erectus
Homo habilis
Australopithecus
Neanderthal Man
Archaeopteryx

They are all reasons why evolution is taught in schools. For once, just pick up a book on evolution and read it with an open mind, if yours isn't too closed up yet.


I can see australopithecus, homo habilis, homo erectus, archaeopteryx, and neanderthal man. I can see the comparisons made and the time periods they lived in. I can see that some species are extinct due to certain mutations, or some species have benefitted from weird, but profittable mutations. I can see my evidence. Can you see yours? Besides, of course, in that closed little mind of yours?

Yeah, it could also be that God hated chimps and thought the female of the human race was more pretty, so he made us smarter, right? Who knows with religion, we can pretty much make our own crazy interpretations until science comes and wreckes them.

An Archaeopteryx is a BIRD, which appears AFTER the first birds found-meaning it cannot be a missing link, genius. Neanderthall is human. That's just what I know off hand.

Science and religion are not at war. You are like a candle-the better burnt.

In the words of Shakespeare:

You starvelling, you eel-skin, you dried neat's-tongue, you bull's-pizzle, you stock-fish--O for breath to utter what is like thee!-you tailor's-yard, you sheath, you bow-case, you vile standing tuck!

You are nothing but a brain dead fundamentalist atheist, who claims that science destroys any other religion save your own-you come in here with no evidence, just a big mouth and an empty head.

[Jbuza]

gone

[Kurieuo]

Please keep on track everyone and stop with the jibes and insults. Next time I'll simply remove the thread.

Thanks,
Kurieuo

[Jbuza]

gone

[bizzt]

You can't see origin of species, you cant see speciation, you can't see the big bang. You believe evolution without seeing it, just as I believe in God having never seen him. You keep refering to evolutionary conjecture as fact when it is actually a theory among many that has no real scientific support.

Second point. I thank you for supporting creation by pointing out the striking similarity of the chimps DNA to ours. The dissimilarity of the abilities of man and chimps with respect to logic and reason easily lends evidence to the dualistic philosophy that points to physical matter and a spiritual matter. Since the chimp and the human is so similar in DNA it could be that the abilities of man that far far surpass anything in the animal kingdom could be that spiritual escence that God breather into us when he created us.

I can see australopithecus, homo habilis, homo erectus, archaeopteryx, and neanderthal man. I can see the comparisons made and the time periods they lived in. I can see that some species are extinct due to certain mutations, or some species have benefitted from weird, but profittable mutations. I can see my evidence. Can you see yours? Besides, of course, in that closed little mind of yours?

Yeah, it could also be that God hated chimps and thought the female of the human race was more pretty, so he made us smarter, right? Who knows with religion, we can pretty much make our own crazy interpretations until science comes and wreckes them.

Wow you are something, I understand Thinker's reaction to you now. You insult my intelligence fine, I don't need to appear high and mighty for you, not that I am. You have seen the time that the supposed human ansectors lived in? How old are you great one? I have been exposed to evolution in more than one course, and part of my reason to spend time here is to understand people like you. I am not convinced by evidence that arrives from a culture wihtin science that presuposses no God. IT is not science to say that. I see the evidence Soccer I am just not convinced by it.

I take some offense to your comments about religion making any crazy interpretation they want . . . No you can't God said that he Formed man with his own hands and breathed life into him. Creation does a better job of explaining the utterly unique abilities of man with respect to logic and reason. Evolution fails to epxlain these thigns, I have asked several times, but evolutionism often skips the hard questions. It would be safe to say from observing the world that man has dominion over it (biblical), how does evolution explain that if this ability to reason and think logically are so adaptive why is it not apperent in far more species. Your theory has the holes, your theory is the one "that makes crazy interpreatations". I could say the same thing to you, without the petty insult, that perhaps you could take a course and approach the bible with an open mind, because from your comment about chimps you don't understand it at all. PErhaps you have just ignored it. that would explain your innability to debate withour resorting to name calling. Lack of understanding the opposing theories.

That was a really good Post! Without the calling of names etc...
Awesome