puritan lad wrote:If you can't find Original Sin in the following verses, then you need to learn how to read.
Psalm 51:5
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."
Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."
Perhaps you can try to rewrite these verses like you did 1 Tim. 3:16, but the Bible says what it says.
Fortigurn wrote:Firstly, I didn't 'rewrite' 1 Timothy 3:16. What happened there was you showed yourself uninformed.
Secondly, I'm looking very hard at these passages but I don't see 'Original Sin' here. Could you explain to me exactly how you reach this conclusion from these passages?
Any passages which articulate clearly this doctrine would also be helpful. An explanation of why it eluded Christians until Augustine would likewise be of interest.
Mr. Fortigurn, just because it does not say 'original sin' in a direct quote does not mean that Sin is not original. The term implies all the scriptures where sin came from, what it is, and how it came to be. It is a single term used to identify massive amounts of scriptures.
Mr. Fortigurn you believe that Jesus was only just a mere mortal man, a representative from God much like an anointed king or prophet would be. If his doctrine is true, then Jesus broke the law of God claiming who he was, God would have also lied when He stated that He would not share His Glory with another.
We can learn a lot from you on this point alone when it comes to the doctrine of Original sin: how — you slant the scriptures to make God out as a liar — therefore — should anything you say be trusted?
Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."
Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."
Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God” NKJV
Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned..” NKJV
Where did this sin originate? Jesus gives us a clue in John 8:42-44, “
Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” RSV
Again in Genesis 3:1-7 “Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the creatures the LORD God had made. - "Really?" he asked the woman. "Did God really say you must not eat any of the fruit in the garden?" "Of course we may eat it," the woman told him. "It's only the fruit from the tree at the center of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God says we must not eat it or even touch it, or we will die." "You won't die!" the serpent hissed. "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God, knowing everything, both good and evil." The woman was convinced. The fruit looked so fresh and delicious, and it would make her so wise! So she ate some of the fruit. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her. Then he ate it, too. At that moment, their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they strung fig leaves together around their hips to cover themselves." New Living Translation
Ezekiel 28:12-19 "Son of man, weep for the king of Tyre. Give him this message from the Sovereign LORD: You were the perfection of wisdom and beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone--red carnelian, chrysolite, white moonstone, beryl, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald--all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created. I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire. "You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you. Your great wealth filled you with violence, and you sinned. So I banished you from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings. You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire from within you, and it consumed you. I let it burn you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you are no more." New Living Translation
Revelation 12:3-9 “Suddenly, I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads. His tail dragged down one-third of the stars, which he threw to the earth. He stood before the woman as she was about to give birth to her child, ready to devour the baby as soon as it was born. She gave birth to a boy who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And the child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to give her care for 1,260 days. Then there was war in heaven. Michael and the angels under his command fought the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle and was forced out of heaven. This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the Devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.” New Living Translation
Revelation 20:7-10 “When the thousand years end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations from every corner of the earth, which are called Gog and Magog. He will gather them together for battle--a mighty host, as numberless as sand along the shore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. Then the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” New Living Translation
Yes, sin originated some where and by some one. It entered the world and polluted humanity. It did have an origin and thus original.
Mr. Fortigurn, do you believe that Satan, the devil, is not a being, is not a creature? Who, along with his comrades, walks about seeking whom they may devour? Whom or what to you believe the devil is? Satan?
This brings us to a unique position to explore — where did sin originate from?
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