God's omniscience vs free-will

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Felgar
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Post by Felgar »

norman619 wrote:This will be my last post here since someone has pretty much informed me that I'm not welcome. Anyway how can you know they didn't come from him? Are you saying you know the mind of God? I hope you aren't saying that. HE created you same as a computer programmer writes programs. That is assuming God is as they say in the Bible.
If you can maintain a civil discussion and add your own truthful and thoughtful input then you are certainly welcome to stay. We are always willing to explain our faith to someone who may not yet understand.

You have claimed "If God knows all then there is no free will" which no one here accepts, so now it is up to you show why foreknowledge of a choice precludes choice. If you can, please do.

I think it should be pointed out that because we cannot travel through time, we cannot expirement about the nature of causality and foreknowledge on the level that you are asserting. So I think science is quite silent on the matter. On the other hand, I believe the Bible explains that we have free-will and also that God knows all, so the logical conclusion is that foreknowledge does not preclude choice.
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Post by Byblos »

norman619 wrote:LOL you are missing the point of this discussion. If God knows all then there is no free will. He already knows what your choices in life will be even before you are born. If he knows all there is nothing to judge. It's done before you are even born. So where is the free will? Where is your chance to deviate from the path God knows you will take? If you can deviate then God doesn't know what you will do and then God is not all knowing all seeing and is fallible.

The view that God knows you like a good friend does is laughable. God is supposed to be your creator. I would expect him to know you a lil better than that. It would be more like God knows you like a programmer knows a program he himself coded but more so. So again I ask where is the free will?
Byblos wrote:Without free will there can be no judgement. Whether or not God has foreknowledge of our actions is irrelevant.


Sandy gave you a very good analogy. I will try another, hopefully this will make you see the subject in a new light so-to-speak. Please keep in mind that analogies are not proofs and quite often you can find counter-analogies. But in any case, I offer it here as that is basically the way I see it:

Imagine that the planet earth is the universe and that outside this universe there is no time. Also imagine you are sitting on the moon (which is outside the universe and outside of time) and you are observing the universe (the planet).

As it rotates (plays out), you can observe any instance in this universe, past present or future. You can see it on a large scale, or you can zoom in at an instance in time (since you are outside of it). You can even interfere with certain aspects (as God clearly does). But even when you zoom in at an instance in the future and see that one of your own precious creations is doing something wrong, it pains you a great deal but you do not interfere (although you can) because direct interference with future actions constitutes suspension of free will. Obviously you do not want to do that as at some point that person will have to answer for his or her actions.

Hope this helps.
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free will vs, omnisciencfe

Post by madscientist »

Again another thing which i never quite understood. if god knows everyhting, hen he can decide when an where will live etc. An more than that, he knows wjat would have happened if that and that did/did not happen. so he can make his plans etc
And yes hed no need to 'run the experiment' of this life, earth. we cud go straight to hell/heavem. but since that wudnt b fair, just for such a god i think tats y we have to xperienc e this.
Stiill interesting 2 know tho how much does god predestine. Among the almost infinite number of possibilities y he chose thiose and not those? then god cud judge us on actions we wud have done if that and that wudnt have haoppened. But then this universe wud hav no puropse...
However, this i thonk kinda helps 2 xplain how prayers etc work, @least 4 me. God knew when we will b praying 4 wat, and so this will happen so. 4 ex, if u pray tday that u'll b healthy etc god knew ud b praying rthat and so he pre-pl;anned that etc.
But then y does he give chance to those that wil never repent? if he knows b4 that y do they get a ahcance????
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Re: free will vs, omnisciencfe

Post by BGoodForGoodSake »

madscientist wrote:Again another thing which i never quite understood. if god knows everyhting, hen he can decide when an where will live etc. An more than that, he knows wjat would have happened if that and that did/did not happen. so he can make his plans etc
And yes hed no need to 'run the experiment' of this life, earth. we cud go straight to hell/heavem. but since that wudnt b fair, just for such a god i think tats y we have to xperienc e this.
Stiill interesting 2 know tho how much does god predestine. Among the almost infinite number of possibilities y he chose thiose and not those? then god cud judge us on actions we wud have done if that and that wudnt have haoppened. But then this universe wud hav no puropse...
However, this i thonk kinda helps 2 xplain how prayers etc work, @least 4 me. God knew when we will b praying 4 wat, and so this will happen so. 4 ex, if u pray tday that u'll b healthy etc god knew ud b praying rthat and so he pre-pl;anned that etc.
But then y does he give chance to those that wil never repent? if he knows b4 that y do they get a ahcance????
I beleived growing up that this life and creation was the process God chose to use, to forge his servants who would glorify the Heavenly Father.

Some were never meant to be saved, they are here to temper and mold those who will eventually enter the kingdom of heaven.

Where did this notion of free-will originate? Any sort of divine interference will eliminate true free will. Only a measure of free will can be given to his creations.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Post by puritan lad »

Again, it might be forewarned that PL has a different take... :D

The Bible knows very little about the “free will” of man, and certainly nothing as far as it is described by Arminians and Pelagians. The very meaning of God's sovereignty is that “He does whatever He pleases.” (Psalm 115:3). “He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?” (Daniel 4:35). “The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.” (Psalm 33:10-11).

God decrees and wills all things that have been and will ever be, “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10). God controls the steps (Jeremiah 10:23) and words of man (Proverbs 16:1) as well as heart of a king (Proverbs 21:1). In God “we live, and move, and have our being,” (Acts 17:28). He upholds “all things by the word of his power,” (Heb. 1:3), that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of his Father (Matthew 10:29). God fashioned the days of man, before they ever existed (Psalm 139:16). This is the God of the Bible, not the poor helpless being who sits on some distant throne hoping that His people will use their "free will" and let Him save them.

Romans 11:33-34
“Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?”

God wills all that happens, even man's evil deeds. Not only that, but he uses the wickedness of man to bring about His Divine, immutable decree. According to Scripture, even Satan himself is in the hands of a Sovereign God. It is for this reason that many have sought to distinguish the will of God from the “permission” of God. However, God Himself has repudiated this distinction with His own Word, stating that He "works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11). God does not alter His decree based on our “free-will”, but acts totally independent of this idol.

While feeble-minded man attempts to remove God's purposeful will from all calamity and replace it with only His distant permission, Job, after passing through his many trials at the hands of Satan, his friends, his family, and his enemies, declares, “Who among all these does not know That the hand of the LORD has done this?” (Job 12:9) Thus the idea of mere “permission” is fiction.

As punishment for David's sin God proclaimed direct responsibility for Absalom's incest, declaring it to be His work (2 Samuel 12:12).

Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8) It was not only the permission, but the will of God for His Son to be slain (Luke 22:42). It was the Will of God that Judas betrayed Christ, the Jews plotted to kill Him, and that the Romans carried out their act, for all these did nothing but what the hand and counsel of God had decreed (Acts 4:28). This is affirmed by Peter, that Christ was delivered to death by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23); in other words, that God, to whom all things are known from the beginning, had willed (not just permitted) what the Jews had executed. He repeats the same thing elsewhere, “Those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled,” (Acts 3:18). They were all "disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Peter 2:8).

These are just a few passages that show that God not only created all things, but sovereignly governs all things according the council of His will, decreeing even sinful acts without being their author. Any other belief is an attempt by rebellious man to remove God from His throne and thrust His church into Deism, or even fatalism.
Last edited by puritan lad on Wed May 24, 2006 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Canuckster1127 »

I respect your position PL and that you've gone to such lengths to support it.

It must be a great comfort to you to have removed all the mystery surrounding this concept and not have to deal with much ambiguity in the realm of the nature of God and Soteriology.
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Post by puritan lad »

As a former Arminian, it is indeed a great comfort to know that I cannot mess up God's will.
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Post by Canuckster1127 »

puritan lad wrote:As a former Arminian, it is indeed a great comfort to know that I cannot mess up God's will.
I agree with that.

God created mankind in His image. Do you believe the power of choice and decision to be an immutable characteristic of God not shared with His creation, or do you see it as limited in some way, and if so, on what basis?
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Post by puritan lad »

Man's will is "free" in the sense that he makes choices. I chose what to wear this morning and what to eat. (At the same time, God had already ordained it).

When it comes to salvation, however, it is "of the Lord" (Jonah 2:9). Man's will is a "slave to sin". Man chooses, but only that which his own sinful nature will allow. This is why we must be born again. No man can come to Christ unless it has been granted to him by the Father.

Hope this helps explain the Calvinist view of "free will".

A blunter description can be found reading John Owen's "The Idol of Free Will".

God Bless,

PL
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Post by Canuckster1127 »

Man's will is "free" in the sense that he makes choices. I chose what to wear this morning and what to eat. (At the same time, God had already ordained it).

When it comes to salvation, however, it is "of the Lord" (Jonah 2:9). Man's will is a "slave to sin". Man chooses, but only that which his own sinful nature will allow. This is why we must be born again. No man can come to Christ unless it has been granted to him by the Father.

Hope this helps explain the Calvinist view of "free will".

A blunter description can be found reading John Owen's "The Idol of Free Will".
Thanks for clarifying.

I'm pretty familiar with both the Calvinistic and the Arminian view.

I think both are incomplete.

I'm content to allow for some mystery to exist, but I respect the efforts of both sides to systematize their beliefs. It is important to be sure.
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Post by puritan lad »

Thanks, for further clarification, Consider the following:
Canuckster1127 wrote:do you see it (the power of choice and decision)as limited in some way, and if so, on what basis?
Even the most stubborn Arminian has to acknowledge some limit on "free will". Just ask them if it is possible for a person to go through their entire life and never commit a single sin. They will respond (hopefully) "Of course not". To which I would ask, "Why not?" In a world of total, unlimited "free will", a Savior would be most unnecessary. We could just use our "free will" to totally and completely obey God and go to Heaven. Thus, they will be forced to acknowledge that our wills are indeed slaves to sin.
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Post by Canuckster1127 »

puritan lad wrote:Thanks, for further clarification, Consider the following:
Canuckster1127 wrote:do you see it (the power of choice and decision)as limited in some way, and if so, on what basis?
Even the most stubborn Arminian has to acknowledge some limit on "free will". Just ask them if it is possible for a person to go through their entire life and never commit a single sin. They will respond (hopefully) "Of course not". To which I would ask, "Why not?" In a world of total, unlimited "free will", a Savior would be most unnecessary. We could just use our "free will" to totally and completely obey God and go to Heaven. Thus, they will be forced to acknowledge that our wills are indeed slaves to sin.
Very True.

The issue is whether there remains any remnent of ability within a person to make an independent decision for God prior to the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit.

Calvinism says no and calls their belief "Total Depravity."

Arminianism says yes, and calls their position "Partial Depravity."

I say, I don't know. I call my position, "I don't know."

Nor do I practically need to know in terms of my own salvation and in terms of someone else's, my only responsibility is to proclaim the good news and allow the "mystery" an opportunity to take place in their lives.

I think this is part of many such mysteries where the Bible seems to present a good case for both positions but in the end, we lack the perception to completely grasp the whole picture.

I've been taken to task regularly by both sides. That's a danger when you stand in the middle of the road. You can get hit by cars going in both directions.

I wonder how the Church managed to get along for 1500 or so years before this debate was framed in the manner it was by the two chief protagonists.
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Post by FFC »

puritan lad wrote:Again, it might be forewarned that PL has a different take... :D

The Bible knows very little about the “free will” of man, and certainly nothing as far as it is described by Arminians and Pelagians. The very meaning of God's sovereignty is that “He does whatever He pleases.” (Psalm 115:3). “He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?” (Daniel 4:35). “The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.” (Psalm 33:10-11).

God decrees and wills all things that have been and will ever be, “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,” (Isaiah 46:10). God controls the steps (Jeremiah 10:23) and words of man (Proverbs 16:1) as well as heart of a king (Proverbs 21:1). In God “we live, and move, and have our being,” (Acts 17:28). He upholds “all things by the word of his power,” (Heb. 1:3), that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of his Father (Matthew 10:29). God fashioned the days of man, before they ever existed (Psalm 139:16). This is the God of the Bible, not the poor helpless being who sits on some distant throne hoping that His people will use their "free will" and let Him save them.

Romans 11:33-34
“Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?”

God wills all that happens, even man's evil deeds. Not only that, but he uses the wickedness of man to bring about His Divine, immutable decree. According to Scripture, even Satan himself is in the hands of a Sovereign God. It is for this reason that many have sought to distinguish the will of God from the “permission” of God. However, God Himself has repudiated this distinction with His own Word, stating that He "works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11). God does not alter His decree based on our “free-will”, but acts totally independent of this idol.

While feeble-minded man attempts to remove God's purposeful will from all calamity and replace it with only His distant permission, Job, after passing through his many trials at the hands of Satan, his friends, his family, and his enemies, declares, “Who among all these does not know That the hand of the LORD has done this?” (Job 12:9) Thus the idea of mere “permission” is fiction.

As punishment for David's sin God proclaimed direct responsibility for Absalom's incest, declaring it to be His work (2 Samuel 12:12).

Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8) It was not only the permission, but the will of God for His Son to be slain (Luke 22:42). It was the Will of God that Judas betrayed Christ, the Jews plotted to kill Him, and that the Romans carried out their act, for all these did nothing but what the hand and counsel of God had decreed (Acts 4:28). This is affirmed by Peter, that Christ was delivered to death by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23); in other words, that God, to whom all things are known from the beginning, had willed (not just permitted) what the Jews had executed. He repeats the same thing elsewhere, “Those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled,” (Acts 3:18). They were all "disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Peter 2:8).

These are just a few passages that show that God not only created all things, but sovereignly governs all things according the council of His will, decreeing even sinful acts without being their author. Any other belief is an attempt by rebellious man to remove God from His throne and thrust His church into Deism, or even fatalism.
PL, you make a very good case. I praise God that He in his sovereignty called out to me and loved me and brought me into His kingdom. It is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. I know that it is His will alone. I just can't get by the idea that He in His love and mercy does not give everyone the opportunity to come to him. I don't mind being wrong...I just feel like something is not lining up. :?
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Post by Byblos »

puritan lad wrote:Thanks, for further clarification, Consider the following:
Canuckster1127 wrote:do you see it (the power of choice and decision)as limited in some way, and if so, on what basis?


Even the most stubborn Arminian has to acknowledge some limit on "free will". Just ask them if it is possible for a person to go through their entire life and never commit a single sin. They will respond (hopefully) "Of course not". To which I would ask, "Why not?" In a world of total, unlimited "free will", a Savior would be most unnecessary. We could just use our "free will" to totally and completely obey God and go to Heaven. Thus, they will be forced to acknowledge that our wills are indeed slaves to sin.


PL,

Couldn't the same argument be said of total depravity? If the will of God and our will are mutually exclusive, what would be the point of a saviour? To save us from what? For it was already determined whether or not we are saved. What is the lesson derived from Jesus' life, death and resurrection if our destiny was already mapped out for us? What would then be the meaning of being born again into Christ?

You are correct in saying we could potentially use our free will to never sin and therefore, have no need for a saviour. But the reality of the matter is that we do not. And we do not, specifically because of our sinful nature. A nature God recognizes full well and for that very reason, sent us a saviour, knowing we could not do it of our own free will. Wouldn't that be the point of freeing us from the constraints of the law? Because we could not keep the law to the letter on our own, no matter how hard we tried?

God Bless,

Byblos.
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Post by Felgar »

Shoot I really don't have time to become too involved right now, but I just wanted to draw to light my objection to PL's position. Pretty much everything I have to say about the matter can be found on page 1 of this thread: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... php?t=1037 There may be some here that came after that discussion I had with PL and never saw it. I would advise that anyone wishing to consider the matter read that thread.
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