Evidence for God from Science

Why is it called the Holy Spirit gift of tongues, if the miracle was on the listeners not the speakers?

You're being dupped! Too many of you are being dupped! I agree with ryo and j316. Just because there are people out there faking tongues in an emotional ecstasy and just because there are false prophets and people scamming money out of those they claim they can heal DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE GIFTS ARE NO LONGER REAL! Sorry, I'm worked up!

Listen, even though there aren't apostles in the same sense as was meant originally, today there are evangelists, who start churchs, which is the main job of an apostle, is it not? Just something to think about.

And what of the other gifts? If we were given the Holy Spirit when we were born again, and the Holy Spirit is what's needed in order for God to work through us as vessels, (otherwise it's done in the flesh and unless God specially blesses the work despite your active flesh it'll burn up as hay and stubble in the day of judgement,)... then why would God not cause special gifts to be given by the Spirit to be used for His work?

The Body of Christ has many members, each having a different job to do. Each Christian has it's line of work given by God for the growth and developement of the Body, and the Holy Spirit is that which is to power it. We are to be branches, through which the Spirit flows to produce fruit. It's not our work, but our letting God work through us, that creates the precious gems and gold and silver that can stand the flame of judgement day. Some are to teach, and their teaching is to be powered by the Holy Spirit; some are to encourage, and their encouragement is to be powered by the Holy Spirit; some are to shepherd, and their discipling of other Christians is to be powered by the Holy Spirit, and so on. What's so funny about the idea that the Holy Spirit wants to work in each Christian by a special area of ministry? That's the whole point of the gifts!

God specially communicated to me that I will one day be able to use the gift of teaching. He audibly spoke to me regarding this, (He's spoken to me twice like that, and once had the Holy Spirit pray through me). It was after I had gotten done reading a devotional at night about how God is sovereign and how our knowledge of Him is the basis of our relationship to Him, (the better you know Him the better your relationship with Him,) and I then laid down to sleep. My eyes were open, I had just laid down, and I was asked by a male voice, "What's the opposite of ignorance?" I immediately responded with, "Well, that'd be knowledge!" The "thing" then did a "Mmm, hmmm," and seemed like it was nodding. I instantly responded with, "Well then someone's got to go out there and teach them!"

You may be concerned about my hearing a voice "in my head", but it was more real than my own thoughts- more close to me than I am to myself, and I didn't think anything of it because of that until the next day when it occured to me that it was God that had spoken. When it happens, you just know it's Him, but afterwards. No freaking out and going into a panic and asking for an autograph or anything! It's just so natural you don't question it or feel uncomfortable with it. Anyway....

My automatic response of teaching I feel was from God. If people have poor relationships to Him because of their ignorance, and God wants to use me to better it by teaching them of Him, (and especially of His sovereignty- that's an area He's been doing extensive schooling with me on,) then I'd imagine the Holy Spirit would empower me to teach, and if that's so then you'd say I would have the gift of teaching! God has already used me like that, I know. The Holy Spirit has come upon me to have me teach others specific things. I'm looking foward with eager anticipation for the day when it'll be routine if not daily! I know He has me on the path towards that. Possibly combining traveling with it. He may have even already told me the exact countries I'd be doing that in! I'm holding out on that for more proof of it being God's will now, but I was 100% sure of it before when I was getting words on it. May be decades until it happens, if it actually will.

Oh, and on prophecy, let's not be so uptight. Of course God can communicate things to His Children He wants known! Having a special word from God about a matter shouldn't be such a big deal to us. Nor even if it should pertain to the future. God wouldn't go crazy with the concept, but use it wisely. It's false prophets who go crazy with it. Don't let the crazies scare you off from the real deal! I'd be scared if we didn't have prophets to give us word from God about things. How could the Body function without them? Just like preachers, teachers and evangelists, we need prophets. No, it would not be adding to God's Word, just like Him speaking audibly to me wouldn't. Just like Him talking to me other ways wouldn't, (which He does, as I like to say, "constantly" just because it's so frequent now.)

If God doesn't give us special revelations about things like where to get a job, which house to buy, which people to pray for, what to say to a willing unbeliever or a downcast believer, we'd be in big trouble! God wants to tell us things. Trouble is, we don't want to hear what He has to say; we're too selfish, or doubt that He can or would. He hates that. It breaks His heart that His Children won't listen when He speaks... or believes He's dumb! (As in can't speak, just to clarify. )

So, there you have it! I hope I did an adequate job explaining what I wanted to.

Anyone read Jack Deere's Suprised by the Power of the Spirit? He was formerly one who rejected all that stuff of the gifts, healings, and miracles. He was a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. Then, amazingly, he (IMO) became sensitive to the Holy Spirit. Thus, he has changed his views and has written a biblical based book supporting ALL the ministries of the Holy Spirit that opporates by the Spirit Himself within us.

Anyone not heard or interested should at least check it out just to have a understanding of that view eh?
SoaringEagle

kateliz wrote:You're being dupped! Too many of you are being dupped! I agree with ryo and j316. Just because there are people out there faking tongues in an emotional ecstasy and just because there are false prophets and people scamming money out of those they claim they can heal DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE GIFTS ARE NO LONGER REAL! Sorry, I'm worked up!

Listen, even though there aren't apostles in the same sense as was meant originally, today there are evangelists, who start churchs, which is the main job of an apostle, is it not? Just something to think about.

I would like to interject something here: A testimony that happened in Colorado, in the city of Fort Collins about 20 years ago. I was part of a Street Evangelism Team of three people. The team were staunch Calvinist and not prone to promote spiritual gifts.

We would spread the word to the local teens hanging out in the downtown area on the weekends and summer/winter nights, most never heard of Jesus. We walked to a group of young teens. They saw us and of course they had to have their mocking say. One guy had a broken wrist — broken the day before — in a cast. He taunted us declaring, “If God — Jesus- is real then let him heal my arm!”

He said it with such contempt that my staunchest Calvinist friend blurted out, “Okay, we will pray, Jesus if you are real — heal this man's arm — amen.” Of course nothing happened and the group of teens laughed us to scorn but we did not relent as we had prior earned their respect through debate.

Next night we spotted the same group of kids. The guy with the broken wrist wore no cast. He saw us and literally ran over to us and said, “Look! No cast! It was broke two days ago and now — Look!”

He went on to explain how the cast became loose as the past evening expired. When he woke up, the cast rattled loosely about his wrist. He showed his mother, who called the doctor. Mother and son both went to hospital to meet the doctor to have the cast — recast. The kid told the doctor his arm no longer hurt and he had full use of his fingers. The physician had the arm re-x-rayed. The x-ray showed that the fracture had completely mended two days after it was broken. It was healed and therefore no need for recasting.

He could not wait to show us. That period time of the three of us spent promoting street evangelism was a great success. We would take the teens to a local Perkins restaurant and spend hours answering their question about God and the Bible. We had so many packed into that restaurant that we were kicked out by the owner on several occasions. You could say it was a season of revival where many found faith and remain so to this day.

There were no more healings during this time, nothing odd at all. It was as though Jesus was using us to engage reason within the hearts of each seeker. My friend, who prayed that simple bold prayer did not start a healing crusade or any such thing and he remains humbly committed to Christ to this day.

When I asked him about why he prayed the way he did, his Calvinism shined through: “If Jesus wanted to heal him — so be it and if not, so be it — if he was called — no matter what he would respond no matter the outcome of the debate.”

Yes, I know God can do as He will and I learnt not to doubt spiritual gifts, even when the over zealous abuse their use, God can do what ever He wants too by any means He wills to carry out His purposes. Let us be instruments He can wisely use and not fools.

I think we are getting at this from two different directions, and this debate is more a problem of semantics than anything else.

First, no Christian I know of doubts that God heals. I am a firm believer in divine healing and actively pray for such. However, this is not the same as the apostolic “gift of healing”, such as when Peter and John healed the lame man where “immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them—walking, leaping, and praising God.” (Acts 3:7-8).

I also believe that God “speaks” to us, in a sense that He moves on our hearts concerning, as kateliz pointed out, jobs, etc. That is not the same as the “gift of tongues and prophecy”, whereby God gives direct special revelation through the mouth of a “prophet”. This would clearly require adding to scripture (Rev. 22:18). These gifts, as defined by the Bible, ceased with the end of the apostolic age, with the modern version being re-invented in the early 1900's. The cessation of these gifts was unanimously taught by the church fathers prior to this time.

"This whole place is very obscure; but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur, but now no longer take place." — Chrysostom (AD 347-407), "Homilies on the First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians," concerning I Corinthians 12. XXIX.

“In the earliest times, "the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed; and they spake with tongues," which they had not learned, "as the Spirit gave them utterance." These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away.” - Augustine (AD 354-430),"Homilies on the First Epistle of John," VI. 10.

The opening section of the Westminster Confession "Of the Holy Scriptures" states. "it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased."

Too bad they didn't give Scripture for their position (maybe they did, I am going by what your post said).

I didn't. But I place the burden of proof on those who say that they don't exist anymore. If we were told all about how we are to have them as Christians and how the Body of Christ needs them to function properly, (basic read of the NT easy gives this,) but doesn't say that they were to end at any time, then I am not obligated to give Scriptural evidence for Bible reading Christians, but those who claim that which was described in the Word doesn't exist anymore are.

But I am also lazy... to my shame... despite my being so okay with it... to my shame again.

I will if I feel that it would be more appropriate; right now I feel no need for people of my stance to give Scripture but those opposing it. And no, early Church "fathers" do not count as Scripture. People are fallible, even them.

puritan, you still have not provided proof that Paul the Apostle saw jesus on the road to domascus, it is because he didnt see him in the flesh, but in the spirit...and if that is true, which it is, why could he not do it now....think man.

i have another question for you puritan. why does so much of your information come from theologist, and phylosophers and people that might be completley off. i mean, dont you ever read the Word of God for yourself. (dont mean this rudely, please dont take it that way).

ryo dokomi,

This is obviously a sensitive issue with you. I spent 20 year in a Pentecostal Church, so I know how adamantly they will defend their doctrine. Here is an exhausted, summarized list of why I eventually rejected their doctrines of continuing gifts. Take this for what you will, as I probably won't change your mind, and you won't change mine.

I.) The Word of God: Scripture testifies that prophecy would cease in the first Century, and the end of Old Covenant Israel.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.”

According to the writer of Hebrews, the Old Testament office of prophet had either ceased or was in the process of ceasing.

Hebrews 1:1
“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;”

Those who claim to have the “gift of prophecy” today either tell falsehoods or quote existing Bible passages under the auspices of “prophecy”.

Norman Geisler writes an excellent summary,

“Either those who claim the gift of prophecy are uttering infallible truths on par with those in the Bible or else the New Testament gift of prophecy does not exist today. For the 'prophecies' given today are not infallible, but are often false. Thus, we must conclude that the New Testament gift of prophecy does not exist today.”

II.) Church History: These gifts were absent from the church until the early 1900's. To suggest that someone has rediscovered a doctrine that has escaped the church fathers for nearly 2000 years is quite egocentric.

Writing of tongues and prophecy, the early church fathers unanimously testify to their cessation. The only people who claimed this gift were heretics such as the Montanists.

"This whole place is very obscure; but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur, but now no longer take place." — Chrysostom (AD 347-407), "Homilies on the First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians," concerning I Corinthians 12. XXIX.

“In the earliest times, "the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed; and they spake with tongues," which they had not learned, "as the Spirit gave them utterance." These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away.” - Augustine (AD 354-430),"Homilies on the First Epistle of John," VI. 10.

The opening section of the Westminster Confession "Of the Holy Scriptures" states. "it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased."

If the gifts of tongues and prophecy had ceased by the fourth century, as church history unanimously testifies, then how could it exist in the 21st century?

The choice is clear. Either the modern Charismatics are wrong, or all of the church fathers throughout 1900 years of church history are wrong. Not a difficult decision. In order to accept the idea that the 20th Century Neo-Pentecostal movement is correct in overturning 2,000 years worth of Church teaching, the burden of proof lies on our modern "prophets". It is painfully obvious that they fall far short in their so-called "prophecies".

III.) Common observation: Pentecostals use very questionable interpretations to support their claims that they have the same gifts as those in the apostolic age. However, the modern gift of "tongues and prophecy" bear no resemblance whatsoever to the biblical version.

It is obvious to any casual reader of scripture that biblical tongues, in the very least, included earthly foreign languages (I'll go a step further and suggest that there is no evidence that they included anything else, but those are fine points on which we won't agree). See (Acts 2:5-6, Acts 2:11, 1 Corinthians 14:21). Why do our modern Pentecostal missionaries have to take a language course before they go overseas to preach the gospel? If they have what they say they have, this should be unnecessary.

The same holds true with prophecy. A prophet in the Bible spoke inerrant, infalliable, authoritative words that were to be obeyed. God threatened punishment upon those who did not obey. There was no room for error in true, biblical prophecy.

Deuteronomy 18:18-22
“I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' And if you say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'— when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

Today's “gift of prophecy”, by your own admission, is a lesser form or prophecy, and therefore is not the same thing as the biblical gift. (Most Christians today don't even know what prophecy is, much less are they able to do it.)

I know the objections, but I would like for you to honestly observe your modern prophets, tongues-talkers, faith-healers, etc. Most Pentecostals want so badly to believe in these gifts that they are easily duped by snake-oil salesmen, TV ministry charlatans, etc.

IV.) Ramifications: If the gifts of tongues and prophecy are in operation today, what does that say about the Scriptures as being “the whole council of God”? The Bible clearly warns against any attempts at seeking divine revelation apart from the scriptures.

Revelation 22:18
”For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;”

The message is clear and sobering. God complete revelation to mankind exists in the Holy Scriptures. Nothing is to be added to or taken away from it without serious consequences. God did not forget to add something that has to now be revealed through the Old Covenant office of Prophet. (In fact, under the Old Covenant, most of our modern “prophets” would have been put to death). The passing away of revelation is not something to be mourned. It is to be celebrated. We have the complete Word of God available to us, something that the First Century church never had.

If, in fact, our modern prophets are uttering the infallible Word of God, then their words need to be recorded so that we can add them to the Bible. Otherwise, let us be satisfied with the fact that “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son (The Word).” (Hebrews 1:1).

"Christ said that he was "the truth" (John 14:6), and he embodied the whole truth (Col. 2:9). But the truth which Christ contained within himself, he in turn, according to his own testimony, disclosed to others. "All things that I heard from my Father I have made known unto you" (John 15:15). If Christ, at the time of his incarnation, could say 'I have made known all,' then how can anyone maintain the possibility that there might be more needed before Christ returns?

"Christ, then, made a disclosure of all truth to the apostles. We see then that Paul could rightly claim that he had declared 'the whole counsel of God' (Acts 20:27). 'I kept back nothing that was profitable,' says Paul (v. 20). Every apostle could make the same claim. How, then, could there remain anything yet to be disclosed which would be of any profit? Paul's testimony in 2 Timothy 3:15-17 plainly indicates that there is no such deficiency, since the Scriptures are able to furnish the believer unto perfection. And if the Holy Scriptures are not sufficient and finished what would a comparison between Hebrews 10:10 (or 10:12, 7:27, etc.) and Jude verse 3 lead to? Can Christ's 'once for all' sacrifice be added to? If it cannot, then how can “the faith once for all delivered to the saints” be added to?

V.) Personal Experience: After 20 years in the Pentecostal Church, I have met literally hundreds of Christians who claim to have “the gift of prophecy”. I have yet to meet one who actually had it. The fundamental question revolves around the nature and purpose of prophecy. Why would we need prophets today? To tell the future? Is that prophecy? A true "prophet" must utter the infallible Word of the Living God, in which we would have to put on par with the Bible. We would need to heed everything that this person says, as divinely inspired truth. Of course, if his "truth" is not found within the Bible itself, than it is a clear violation of Rev. 22:18. And if the prophet's words are found in the Bible, then it isn't prophecy. (Quoting Scripture is not prophecy.) How come most of the "prophecy" today is nothing more than quoting scripture (and usually using 16th Century King James English at that)?

Biblically speaking, the prophet was God's "prosecuting attorney" against Old Covenant Israel, declaring God's Covenant lawsuit. This is true of New Testament prophets as well. Since Old Covenant Israel no longer exists, who will the modern prophets prosecute?

The offices of Old Covenant Prophet and New Covenant Apostle were the foundation of the church. (Eph. 2:19-21). While the foundation is important, the rest of the household of God requires different building material. Instead of incomplete mysteries that need to be uttered through prophecies, we have the complete Word of God before us today. Sola Scriptura…

As far as the office of Apostle is concerned, the main qualification is that the person is an eyewitness to Christ's ministry and resurrection (Acts 1:19-22, 1 Cor. 15:5-7). The only exception was Paul, who was “one born out of due time” (1 Cor. 15:8). At least Paul was an eyewitness to the resurrection, as he clearly says that Christ appeared unto him. I dare say that no one alive today fulfills these qualifications.

Again, I know that this is sensitive to you. I only want you to honestly observe your modern prophets in action, and see if they measure up to the Deut. 18:18-22 standard.

God Bless,

PL

A powerful post. It's good to be able to agree with you now and then PL. Philip Mauro wrote some great articles on this.

ryo dokomi wrote:puritan, you still have not provided proof that Paul the Apostle saw jesus on the road to domascus, it is because he didnt see him in the flesh, but in the spirit...and if that is true, which it is, why could he not do it now....think man.

1 Corinthians 15:4-8
"and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time."

Paul is defending the doctrine of the resurrection. He clearly states that "last of all He was seen by me also". To suggest that "he didnt see him in the flesh, but in the spirit" would defeat his entire argument for the resurrection.

There are no apostles around today.

thank you. that was very informative, and i will honestly take it into consideration. however you are right that there is no real point in going into it much more, since niether of us will change our point of view. besides, we'll find out when we see the LORD in all Glory in Heaven. (cant wait for that) also, you are correct about this subject being a sensitive subject, i had a friend that, because i believe in prophets, he calls me a prophet worshiper, which is not true. i worship GOD only, like it is written, 'you shall worship the LORD your God, and only Him you shall serve.' please dont think that i worship prophets like others think i do. that, in my personal opinion, in not fair. however, again, it is clear that niether of us are going to change our beliefs, and we will find out sooner or later anyway what the truth is. however i would like to make just one more comment. wasnt there prophets like Ezekeil or Elijah, one of the prophets of scripture, that had, many times, failed in prophesy. i dont know, i was told that by my pastor, and i was just wondering. also, the HOLY SPIRIT was sent to lead us into all truth, if we have the scripture, what was the point of the HOLY SPIRIT. and we also have Him today, if He was sent to write scripture, which is not true because he was sent for much more, and to all believers, not just the ones that added to scripture. why would we have the HOLY SPIRIT today if he is to lead us to all truth, yet we have scripture for that.

ohh...i havent read that, thanks that really helps, besides, i actually havent met an apostle, i just have had a class on the Five Fold Ministry, and believe in all five: Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher and Pastor. Eph. 4:11.

ryo dokomi wrote: wasnt there prophets like Ezekeil or Elijah, one of the prophets of scripture, that had, many times, failed in prophesy. i dont know, i was told that by my pastor, and i was just wondering.

I think you are referring to Jonah. Some say that his prophecy "failed".

Jonah 3:4
"And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”"

Obviously, this didn't come true. So did Jonah's prophecy fail? No.

Those who say so don't understand what prophecy is. They think that it is fortune telling, or as Hal Lindsey likes to define it, "history written in advance". This is simply not the case.

As I mentioned earlier, a prophet is God's prosecuting attourney. Here is how God himself describes prophecy.

Jeremiah 18:7-10
"The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it."

Bible prophecy isn't just prediction, but is a sentence passed from God concerning His Covenant, which contains blessing for obedience (Deuteronomy 28:1-14) and cursings for disobedience (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

Isaiah 55:11
"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."