Evidence for God from Science

[quote="Judah"]This issue is dealt with by Lee Strobel in his book, The Case for Faith, being "Objection #4: God and the Killing of Innocents" which he raises with Norman L. Geisler.

Thanks Judah. I have this book and got it out and re-read #4. Good stuff. All Strobels' books are good.

Deborah wrote:I read somewhere that Islam comes through Ishmael.
According to the Hebrew bible both the descendents of Isaac and Ishmael are the Chosen People, because God makes a covenant with both groups. And like Issac, God promises that Ishmaels offspring will become a "great Nation" (Genesis 21:13,) Genesis 21:18

According to the Jewish Mishnah and the Muslim Koran, Abrahams father makes a living constructing idols used in pagan religion. One day while his father is absent, Abraham smashes all the adols except for the largest, and places a hammer in it's hand. When his father returns, he is furious and asks how this happined. Abraham blames the largest Idol, and when his father refuses to believe him, he brilliantly illustrates to his father the folly of idolatry.

(tell me that doesn't say it's ok to lie as long as you can make a good point)

I have some comments to make on this issue, something to think about.

Yes, Ishmael is believed to be the ancestor of the Arab people.
The Arab people are certainly numerous, occupy land that is rich in resources (oil), and could perhaps be claimed collectively as a great nation, but...
Is it the same thing as claiming that Islam comes through Ishmael?
And that it is Islam that has made the Arabs a great nation?
Great in what respect?
How should we interpret those passages in Genesis 21?

Ishmael, firstborn son of Abraham, son by his servant Hagar, is very likely an ancestor of Muhammad.
Islam came directly from Muhammad. Islam resulted from Muhammad's claimed discourse with the one god whom he called Allah, and it did not begin as an ideology/religion until around 600 AD.
How can something that did not start until many centuries later be said to have come from Ishmael, and through Ishmael from Abraham?

This is the thing that Muhammad does to give his doctrine credibility.
Did you know that Islam regards itself, not as a subsequent faith to Judaism and Christianity, but as the primordial religion - the faith from which Judaism and Christianity are subsequent developments?
I jest not! See article by Dr. Mark Durie
In the Qur'an it is claimed that Abraham "was not a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a monotheist, a Muslim" (Al-Imran 3:66) and so we are told it is Muslims, and not Christians or Jews, who are the true representatives of the faith of Abraham to the world today (Al-Baqarah 2:135).

3: 66. O People of the Book ! Why do you dispute concerning Abraham, When the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him ? Will you not understand.
3: 67. Behold ! you are those who disputed about that whereof you had some knowledge. Why then do you now dispute about that whereof you have no knowledge at all ? Allah knows and you know not.
3: 68. Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian but he was ever inclined to God and obedient to HIM, and he was not of those who associate gods with Allah.
3: 69. Surely, the nearest of men to Abraham are those who followed him and this prophet and those who believe in him, and Allah is the Friend of the believers.
3: 70. A party of the People of the Book would fain lead you astray; but they lead astray none except themselves, only they perceive not.
3: 71. O People of the Book ! Why do you deny the signs of Allah, while you are witnesses thereof ?
3: 72. O People of the Book ! Why do you confound truth with falsehood and hide the truth knowingly ?

Source: Qur'an

How can something that did not begin until the 7th century AD make legitimate claims on people who existed around 2000 BC?

The Bible does support the claim that Abraham's father worshipped idols.

Joshua 24:2 Joshua said to all the people, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Long ago your forefathers, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the River and worshiped other gods.

But I find no mention in the Bible of the little story of how Abraham illustrated to his father the folly of idolatry.

Is it OK to lie as long as you make a good point?
Interesting question.
Do the ends justify the means?
But we do use parables and fantasy as a way to teach a truth, as did Jesus, so... ???
I actually like the stroy although it does not appear to be Biblical.

Christian 2, have you read any of the works by Robert Spencer, director of Jihad Watch and an Adjunct Fellow with the Free Congress Foundation?

I have just finished reading his latest book, the New York Times bestseller, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), and am now reading The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims, which is a collection of essays of which he is editor.
Both these books are excellent for Christian students of Islam.

Everything I have read so far correlates well with the writings of Dr Mark Gabriel whose books are also well recommended for their truthful representation of Islam.

The article by Dr Mark Durie which I have linked to in my post just above is very worthwhile reading, and is also included in Robert Spencer's collection of essays.

Yes, Lee Strobel has a lot to offer!

Judah wrote:Christian 2, have you read any of the works by Robert Spencer, director of Jihad Watch and an Adjunct Fellow with the Free Congress Foundation?

I have just finished reading his latest book, the New York Times bestseller, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades), and am now reading The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims, which is a collection of essays of which he is editor.
Both these books are excellent for Christian students of Islam.

Everything I have read so far correlates well with the writings of Dr Mark Gabriel whose books are also well recommended for their truthful representation of Islam.

The article by Dr Mark Durie which I have linked to in my post just above is very worthwhile reading, and is also included in Robert Spencer's collection of essays.

Yes, Lee Strobel has a lot to offer!

No Judah, I have not read any of Spencer's book. I'm going to put them on my Christmas list.

You all might be interested in reading the sources of Islam if you haven't already.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/index.html

This is the one about Abraham's father and the idols:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/So ... raham.html

If you read these links you will see that a lot of Jewish and Christian folklore crept into the Qur'an as "revelations."

Christian2 wrote:You all might be interested in reading the sources of Islam if you haven't already.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/index.html

This is the one about Abraham's father and the idols:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/So ... raham.html

If you read these links you will see that a lot of Jewish and Christian folklore crept into the Qur'an as "revelations."

Thanks for the info!! This is good stuff to know!

God Bless You

B. W. wrote:

Christian2 wrote:You all might be interested in reading the sources of Islam if you haven't already.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/index.html

This is the one about Abraham's father and the idols:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/So ... raham.html

If you read these links you will see that a lot of Jewish and Christian folklore crept into the Qur'an as "revelations."

Thanks for the info!! This is good stuff to know!

God Bless You

I have never gotten a reasonable explanation from any Muslim as to why all of this stuff ended up in the Qur'an. From the Christian perspective, they ended up in the Qur'an because these little stories circulated in the environment in which Muhammad lived and he couldn't tell the difference between the fables and what was revealed in the Bible.

Next Assignment:

We Christians say that Jesus died for our sins; the sacrifice on the cross. This is how my Muslim friend of 4 years argues against such an idea.

Argument from a Muslim:

Jesus said: "I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. I received this commandment from my Father."

In this case, there wasn't any sacrifice either by God or Jesus. Each knew well that he would get up. Another point that I wish to make: Jonah was in the belly of the giant fish for three days but he was alive, not dead. So was Jesus hidden for three days, alive but not dead! Got it? When one gives up one's own life knowing that one will die and never get up, then that is a true sacrifice.

Kind of makes your head hurt a little doesn't it?

Christian2 wrote: Kind of makes your head hurt a little doesn't it?

It kinda does, alright!

When it comes to the sacrifice that Jesus made, I don't see it as one single thing - just His death on the cross from which He rose alive again. Oh, and how quickly and easily those words are said, as though there was nothing to it at all.

Jesus was obedient to His Father (our Father too) every moment of His mortal physical life on Earth.
He was tempted, we are told in Matthew 4, to do things a different way - turn stones into bread, leap off the top of a temple, take over a wordly kingship - but in each instance He rebuked Satan and remained obedient.
We are also told in Hebrews 4:18 that Jesus knew temptation in every way that we are also tempted. But He did not give in to temptation - He remained obedient to God the Father.

Now nobody tell me that it is not quite some sacrifice to relinquish one's own self interest and faultlessly obey God. I simply will not believe them!

Jesus made one huge sacrifice by accepting His pain and suffering, from His anguish in the Garden of Gethsemane, His torturous flogging until raw, bloody and physically exhausted, and when nailed through his bones and hanging on the cross. If anyone has any doubt that this is a sacrifice, be sure to have them watch Mel Gibson's movie to fully appreciate the horror and then tell me again that Jesus made no sacrifice. I'll think they have completely lost their marbles!

And then Jesus, His human mortal physical being, did indeed die - and died the most excruciating and terrible, shameful, death at that. Giving up that aspect of His life was not a sacrifice? I don't believe that either.
But then came His resurrection, as will come ours.

As a Christian, it is my belief that my soul is immortal, that there is the resurrection, and that I will continue to live in the life hereafter.
Muslims also believe in a life hereafter.

If Jesus made no sacrifice because of His bodily resurrection, then to be consistent with the Muslim argument, since we also have knowledge of our future resurrection, to give up our lives for something is no sacrifice either.