Evidence for God from Science

puritan lad wrote:

Locker wrote:Yes, Jews do worship the One True God but how can they ever meet the second person of the trinity using language like that?

If you don't know the Second person of the Trinity, then you don't worship the same God. The only way a Jew can be saved is if he abandons his false religion and adopts the religion of his father Abraham, which includes Jesus Christ and His gospel (Galatians 3:8).

If you don't like the language, talk to Jesus (John 8:39-44), not me.

Unfortunately that writes off 4,000 years of Jews, including Abraham. Pity they never knew the importance of worshipping the second person of the trinity.

Acts 4:12
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.""

Galatians 3:7-9
"Therefore know that only those who are of [the Christian] faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

The last two verses were written by Jews, not Gentiles. Abraham was saved by Christ, not by modern Judaism, which didn't exist until 70 AD. Your theology makes the work of Christ unnecessary.

I agree with Puritan here. The faith of those who came before Christ was credited to them as righteousness, and it is because of that faith and sincere desire to serve God that Jesus' redemption applies to them also. Paul said "between Jew and Gentile there is no difference" and I agree with that. Both are saved by God's grace through faith.

Although Puritan will probably disagree with my explanation of why and how, we both agree that both Jew and Gentile are saved by Jesus' act of righteousness. For no man comes to the Father but by Jesus. That is a timeless statement, and is not intended as a "from this point on" announcement.

And it should be reiterrated that the expert of the Law saw God's Love in it and therefore knew who Jesus was; the reaction of the expert is an example of the reaction that all those claiming the same faith of Abraham should have. That concept is supported by the scriptures provided by Puritan.

For those of you who believe that Christians and Judaists worship the same God, let me ask you these questions.

What would you think of a practicing Christian who deciding to reject the Christian faith and become a Judaist?

Why were the Pharisees condemned (please don't say legalism)?

The incompatibility between Christianity and Christ-rejecting Judaism is THE theme of the entire New Testament. A few examples other than what I've already posted:

Matthew 3:7-12
Matthew 8:11-12
Matthew 21:33-45
Romans 9:6
Romans 2:28-29
1 Corinthians 7:19
Galatians 3:29
Galatians 5:6
Philippians 3:2-3
Colossians 2:11
Titus 1:10
Revelation 2:9

There are many more, but this should suffice. Judaism, just like Mormonism, JW's, Islam, Buddhism, etc. is a cult, not a biblical religion.

puritan lad wrote:Judaism, just like Mormonism, JW's, Islam, Buddhism, etc. is a cult, not a biblical religion.

Yes, BUT, Judaism came first (OT) and then rolled over to Christianity (NT). If we didn't have the OT which the Jews possessed, we wouldn't have the full picture.

Fortigurn wrote:

puritan lad wrote:

Locker wrote:Yes, Jews do worship the One True God but how can they ever meet the second person of the trinity using language like that?

If you don't know the Second person of the Trinity, then you don't worship the same God. The only way a Jew can be saved is if he abandons his false religion and adopts the religion of his father Abraham, which includes Jesus Christ and His gospel (Galatians 3:8).

If you don't like the language, talk to Jesus (John 8:39-44), not me.

Unfortunately that writes off 4,000 years of Jews, including Abraham. Pity they never knew the importance of worshipping the second person of the trinity.

not true, both Noah and Abraham were rightious men, their faith is the same faith we are suppose to have. Faith has not changed, because as pointed out so many times God does not change. It is our understanding or more correctly misunderstandings that change.
Both Noah and Abraham had a personal relationship with God.

puritan lad wrote:Acts 4:12
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.""

Galatians 3:7-9
"Therefore know that only those who are of [the Christian] faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

The last two verses were written by Jews, not Gentiles. Abraham was saved by Christ, not by modern Judaism, which didn't exist until 70 AD. Your theology makes the work of Christ unnecessary.

My theology does not say that modern Judaism saves anyone. My theology is that Abraham was saved by the gospel of Christ, which was preached to him before it was preached to us.

My point was that it is clearly unnecessary to believe in the second person of the trinity in order to be saved. Abraham certainly didn't.

Deborah wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

puritan lad wrote:

Locker wrote:Yes, Jews do worship the One True God but how can they ever meet the second person of the trinity using language like that?

If you don't know the Second person of the Trinity, then you don't worship the same God. The only way a Jew can be saved is if he abandons his false religion and adopts the religion of his father Abraham, which includes Jesus Christ and His gospel (Galatians 3:8).

If you don't like the language, talk to Jesus (John 8:39-44), not me.

Unfortunately that writes off 4,000 years of Jews, including Abraham. Pity they never knew the importance of worshipping the second person of the trinity.

not true, both Noah and Abraham were rightious men, their faith is the same faith we are suppose to have. Faith has not changed, because as pointed out so many times God does not change. It is our understanding or more correctly misunderstandings that change.
Both Noah and Abraham had a personal relationship with God.

I think my /sarcasm tags must have been broken.

Fortigurn wrote:

Deborah wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

puritan lad wrote:

Locker wrote:Yes, Jews do worship the One True God but how can they ever meet the second person of the trinity using language like that?

If you don't know the Second person of the Trinity, then you don't worship the same God. The only way a Jew can be saved is if he abandons his false religion and adopts the religion of his father Abraham, which includes Jesus Christ and His gospel (Galatians 3:8).

If you don't like the language, talk to Jesus (John 8:39-44), not me.

Unfortunately that writes off 4,000 years of Jews, including Abraham. Pity they never knew the importance of worshipping the second person of the trinity.

not true, both Noah and Abraham were rightious men, their faith is the same faith we are suppose to have. Faith has not changed, because as pointed out so many times God does not change. It is our understanding or more correctly misunderstandings that change.
Both Noah and Abraham had a personal relationship with God.

I think my /sarcasm tags must have been broken.

Don't beleive in sarcasm, it doesn't bring out the best in us
God requires our best, at all times

Love is patient, love is kind
It does not envy, it does not boast. It is not proud,
It is not rude, It is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices in the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1Corinthians 13:4-7

I want to have a love like that.

Thinker wrote:

puritan lad wrote:Judaism, just like Mormonism, JW's, Islam, Buddhism, etc. is a cult, not a biblical religion.

Yes, BUT, Judaism came first (OT) and then rolled over to Christianity (NT). If we didn't have the OT which the Jews possessed, we wouldn't have the full picture.

You're missing the point. The OT Judaism that you speak of no longer exists. The OT Judaists were saved by the same Jesus the NT Jews (Christians) are saved by. Modern Judaism is a newer religion than Christianity, and it is a false one.

Christian2 wrote:

puritan lad wrote:No. The god of Judaism is the Devil. (John 8:37-44)

Hello puritan lad,

So, what you are saying and how you are interpreting John 8:37-44 is that all Jews worship the devil, in the first century up to the present time. Or is Jesus saying that some Jews fall into this category?

So anyone who rejects Jesus as the Messiah and the Word of God worships the devil--this would include all non-Trinitarian people, not just the Jews.

The Gospel clearly states that unconverted Jews will not inherit eternal life, as neither will thieves, homosexuals, etc. I think its pretty clear.

Can we look at this question this way?

The best analogy I can come up with is this: A father has two young sons and one of the sons stays with his father after a divorce and the other goes with the mother. The son with the mother says that he loves his father, but in reality since he has not lived with him, he does not know his father well enough to really love him--he doesn't fully know who he is. However, the son who remains with his father does know him. The Jews are the son who left the father; the Christians are the son who stayed with the father. The bottom line is that the father is the father (God) of both the sons--he is not a different father--it is just that one son knows him fully and the other doesn't.

Christian2 wrote:Can we look at this question this way?

The best analogy I can come up with is this: A father has two young sons and one of the sons stays with his father after a divorce and the other goes with the mother. The son with the mother says that he loves his father, but in reality since he has not lived with him, he does not know his father well enough to really love him--he doesn't fully know who he is. However, the son who remains with his father does know him. The Jews are the son who left the father; the Christians are the son who stayed with the father. The bottom line is that the father is the father (God) of both the sons--he is not a different father--it is just that one son knows him fully and the other doesn't.

Yes, this is my opinion too. The Jewish people still need the Messiah - Jesus for salvation and we are called to witness to them as anyone else.

There are several ways to go fishing for souls and tossing stones into the water frightens the fish away from the net and pole. We need to stop tossing stones and obey the great commission.

Now, if you are from Arkansas you may use dynamite instead of a net, or pole but to do so kills the fish and stunning can also ruin the catch.

The Jewish people need the Messiah as we all do. Much of the language used here in this thread frightens the catch away. I ask - please tone it down a bit. Jewish people do read this forum - let's show and teach them about the Messiah and stop splashing the water.

Locker wrote:

Christian2 wrote:Can we look at this question this way?

The best analogy I can come up with is this: A father has two young sons and one of the sons stays with his father after a divorce and the other goes with the mother. The son with the mother says that he loves his father, but in reality since he has not lived with him, he does not know his father well enough to really love him--he doesn't fully know who he is. However, the son who remains with his father does know him. The Jews are the son who left the father; the Christians are the son who stayed with the father. The bottom line is that the father is the father (God) of both the sons--he is not a different father--it is just that one son knows him fully and the other doesn't.

Yes, this is my opinion too. The Jewish people still need the Messiah - Jesus for salvation and we are called to witness to them as anyone else.

There are several ways to go fishing for souls and tossing stones into the water frightens the fish away from the net and pole. We need to stop tossing stones and obey the great commission.

Now, if you are from Arkansas you may use dynamite instead of a net, or pole but to do so kills the fish and stunning can also ruin the catch.

The Jewish people need the Messiah as we all do. Much of the language used here in this thread frightens the catch away. I ask - please tone it down a bit. Jewish people do read this forum - let's show and teach them about the Messiah and stop splashing the water.

Thanks locker,

You have suggested another subject and I will start it if it has not been started by someone else in the past. I'll go look and see.

okay puritan, what is the difference between the old testament jews, and this new judism that you speak of. i dont know what you are talking about.