Evidence for God from Science

I recall a program on Israeli National Radio that there is in fact a Jewish group there with this goal in mind.

I have a few charts here that I'd like to share, but I won't be able to use a scanner for possibly a few days. However, I will for now, because I'm feeling lazy about the whole thing, give at least the website for this group I heard of and a few Scriptures proving that there must be a Third Temple built for purposes in the End Times:

http://www.templemountfaithful.org

Daniel 9:26-27
Matthew 24:15
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Revelation 11:1-2

kateliz wrote:a few Scriptures proving that there must be a Third Temple built for purposes in the End Times:

Daniel 9:26-27

I read where the temple would be destroyed (70 AD), but nothing about it being rebuilt. This prophecy has been fulfilled, unless Daniel is a false prophet. (It's been much longer that 490 years since the temple was rebuilt in Nehemiah's day - Daniel 9:24)

kateliz wrote:Matthew 24:15

Again, I read where the temple would be destroyed (70 AD), but nothing about it being rebuilt. This prophecy has been fulfilled, unless Jesus is a false prophet. (See Matthew 24:34 and ignore NIV footnote. "Genea" does not mean "race", ever.).

kateliz wrote:2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Paul was referring to the current temple of his day (read 2 Thessalonians 2:7), not some future temple.

kateliz wrote:Revelation 11:1-2

Again, I read where the temple would be destroyed for 42 months (70 AD), but nothing about it being rebuilt. Since this prophecy was to happen "shortly" (Rev. 1:1), was "near" (Rev 1:3), and was "about to take place" (Rev. 1:19), I'd say it has been fulfilled.

There is nothing in the Bible about a third Jewish temple.

You go, Puritan boy!

I noticed something while reading the gospels last week that I hadn't seen before. Luke 21:20 says that when you see the armies around Jerusalem, run. If you look at Mark and Matthew that is the precise point at which they are referring to Daniel. Thus Luke defines the abomination of desolation as armies encircling Jerusalem.

j316 wrote:I noticed something while reading the gospels last week that I hadn't seen before. Luke 21:20 says that when you see the armies around Jerusalem, run. If you look at Mark and Matthew that is the precise point at which they are referring to Daniel. Thus Luke defines the abomination of desolation as armies encircling Jerusalem.

Right on. The "Abomination of Desolation" was the armed invasion of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. You might also be interested in what Josephus and Eusebius say about the Christians who saw that event.

“As Josephus was speaking thus with a loud voice, the seditious would neither yield to what he said, nor did they deem it safe for them to alter their conduct; but as for the people, they had a great inclination to desert to the Romans; accordingly, some of them sold what they had, and even the most precious things that had been laid up as treasures by them, for every small matter, and swallowed down pieces of gold, that they might not be found out by the robbers; and when they had escaped to the Romans, went to stool, and had wherewithal to provide plentifully for themselves; for Titus let a great number of them go away into the country, whither they pleased.” — (Josephus - Wars 5:10:1)

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.” — (Eusebius - History of the Church 3:5:3)

I wish I could re-find the link concerning the end times and the rebuilding of the Jewish temple but I can not locate it but I'll keep looking. This Messianic Jewish Christian web site had an interesting take on the Temple that I have not heard — please note that web site is from the Messianic Movement.

I'll post their views here as they are interesting to say the least. The comments were confined to Revelations 12:1-17 and to verse 13-14. Verse 14 speaks of a woman, who gave birth to the messiah being persecuted and then flies into the wilderness where she is nourished for a Times, Times, and a half a Time.

According to what I read and remember, they view the Times, Times, and a half a Time to mean something very different from traditional beliefs on this subject. They make a note that the Jewish people (The Woman) were driven out of her homeland twice and sought refuge in the wilderness (the World). Each of these times were the Times mentioned in Revelations chapter 12:14.

They define Time as an indefinite cycle of time that can span days to thousands of years. In other words, Times, for them represent historical epochs that begin and end at specific points thus completing a full-cycle of time as described in Revelations chapter 12.

For them, they see the first cycle revolving around the building of the temple, the temple's total absolute destruction (not desecration), followed by the scattering the Jewish people, and then the Jewish people re-gathering back into their homeland. This marks one cycle of time. First temple built, destroyed, book of Nehemiah states how the Jewish people returned back to homeland.

The next cycle begins with the re-building of the temple, the temple's total absolute destruction (not desecration), followed by another scattering the Jewish people, and then the Jewish people re-gathered back into their homeland. This marks the second cycle of time.

During this cycle of time, the Jewish people rebuild the temple, this temple is remodeled, desecrated, remodeled but was not totally destroyed till about 70 AD. The Jewish people were again scattered into the world where they were nourished and the serpent tried to destroy them many times and failed. The Jewish people after World War II, mysteriously returned Israel as Isaiah 66: 7-8 states concerning a Nation being born in one day.

According to them, the Half a Time starts with the rebuilding of the Third Temple but this cycle of time is cut in half and the Jewish people will not be scattered again but will discover the Messiah through much travail. To them, it is the time of dividing. A time when the forces of darkness make war against God's people: The end times.

They base this on 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17. The man of sin sits in this third temple — so, they view this to mean a third temple. In their view -Matthew 24:1-51 and 25:1-46 likewise points to a third temple and the time of the end.

Whatever one's belief in End Time prophecy, this one is the most unique and intriguing I have read. Many of the current hypotheses on interpreting end time prophecy were designed before the nation of Israel ever existed and during the second scattering. Also it appears historically that several such hypotheses were of anti-Semitic origin and believed that the Jewish people had no right to exist in defiance of Romans 11:1 statement. So here is food for thought: what happens if these older hypotheses were missing something? Who knows?? It is more food for thought in the arena of ideas.

As for me, I don't know about this subject too well except that we should continue to pray to be counted worthy to escape these things (Luke 21:36). - however and whatever this means in its fullest sense.

Here are more interesting Links concerning the building of the Third Temple from a wide array of sources:

http://www.kosmic-kabbalah.com/pages/te ... temple.htm

http://www.templemount.org/tempprep.html

http://dunamai.com/articles/Israel/thir ... _built.htm
-
-
-
-

puritan lad wrote:

kateliz wrote:a few Scriptures proving that there must be a Third Temple built for purposes in the End Times:

Daniel 9:26-27

I read where the temple would be destroyed (70 AD), but nothing about it being rebuilt. This prophecy has been fulfilled, unless Daniel is a false prophet. (It's been much longer that 490 years since the temple was rebuilt in Nehemiah's day - Daniel 9:24)

kateliz wrote:Matthew 24:15

Again, I read where the temple would be destroyed (70 AD), but nothing about it being rebuilt. This prophecy has been fulfilled, unless Jesus is a false prophet. (See Matthew 24:34 and ignore NIV footnote. "Genea" does not mean "race", ever.).

kateliz wrote:2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Paul was referring to the current temple of his day (read 2 Thessalonians 2:7), not some future temple.

kateliz wrote:Revelation 11:1-2

Again, I read where the temple would be destroyed for 42 months (70 AD), but nothing about it being rebuilt. Since this prophecy was to happen "shortly" (Rev. 1:1), was "near" (Rev 1:3), and was "about to take place" (Rev. 1:19), I'd say it has been fulfilled.

There is nothing in the Bible about a third Jewish temple.

here is the passage Matt 24: 15-31 (Jesus speaking)
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Well if the Abomination of desolation referred to was that from 70 A.D. what about the rest of the prophecy that's pretty much in chronolgical order and propinquity? has the great tribulation already gone by too? Surely you're not calling Jesus a false prophet too!?!

animated_mud wrote:Well if the Abomination of desolation referred to was that from 70 A.D. what about the rest of the prophecy that's pretty much in chronolgical order and propinquity?

They were fulfilled in 70 AD, just like Christ said.

animated_mud wrote:has the great tribulation already gone by too?

Yes. See Futurist Inconsistencies Regarding the Great Tribulation

animated_mud wrote:Surely you're not calling Jesus a false prophet too!?!

Nope. I believe that all of these things happened in the First Century, just like Christ said they would.

Check the following:

Signs of the Olivet Discourse Part I
Signs of the Olivet Discourse Part II
Signs of the Olivet Discourse Part III
Signs of the Olivet Discourse Part IV
Signs of the Olivet Discourse Part V

Also check out Apocalyptic Language in the Bible to help clarify some of the Olivet Prophecies

Hi Puritan.

What by your reckoning is left to happen then? I have read revelation and if all that as already happened with the Romans and Nero - then what is left to happen. Is there a second coming?

(I have no particular view on this subject - just curious to see what you think? )

God Bless

Silvertusk

You are correct.

"A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."" (Psalms 110:1)

I believe that there will be a future conversion of Judaists to the Christian faith (Romans 11:24-26), and as such "All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations." (Psalms 22:27-28). Unlike other millennial views, postmillennialists believe in the success of the Great Commission in this church age. What we have left is the Second Advent (Acts 1:9-11), the resurrection (John 5:28-29), and the Final Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). The Church of the First Century has already suffered "great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be" (Matthew 24:21).

Granted, we will always have tribulation, for being Christ's disciple requires us to take up a cross. But thankfully, there is no reason to believe that we will have to suffer the way the Apostle's did.

puritan lad wrote:They were fulfilled in 70 AD, just like Christ said.

puritan lad wrote: Nope. I believe that all of these things happened in the First Century, just like Christ said they would.

Referring to these passages:::> NOTICE the first word here "I M M E D I A T E L Y"

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

next verse...."And then....."

[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It seems you view the 'Great Tribulation' as something confined to the 'Church' though from scripture it's clear that this will be a 'global' event.

If all that which you said did take place in 70 A.D. then it's a pretty long time to start with the phrase "Immediately after", don't you think? then again you called Daniel a false prophet.....is this the Daniel who Jesus referred to in Mark 13?

Mark.13
v[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

I think I should stick to the bible here.

Jesus said that ALL of these things would happen within the apostle's generation (Matthew 24:34). Who's calling who a false prophet?

Daniel's Abomination of Desolation was also fulfilled in AD 70 (Compare Matthew 24:15-22 with Luke 21:20-24). The Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel was the armed invasion of Jerusalem by the Romans.

It seems you view the 'Great Tribulation' as something confined to the 'Church' though from scripture it's clear that this will be a 'global' event.

Such as???

puritan lad wrote:You are correct.

"A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."" (Psalms 110:1)

I believe that there will be a future conversion of Judaists to the Christian faith (Romans 11:24-26), and as such "All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations." (Psalms 22:27-28). Unlike other millennial views, postmillennialists believe in the success of the Great Commission in this church age. What we have left is the Second Advent (Acts 1:9-11), the resurrection (John 5:28-29), and the Final Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). The Church of the First Century has already suffered "great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be" (Matthew 24:21).

Granted, we will always have tribulation, for being Christ's disciple requires us to take up a cross. But thankfully, there is no reason to believe that we will have to suffer the way the Apostle's did.

Was the tribulation 7 years though?

Silvertusk wrote:Was the tribulation 7 years though?

Actually, the Bible never says anything about the tribulation lasting 7 years. A good case can be made, however, for it lasting 3 1/2 years. After the great fire destroyed most of Rome in AD 64, most historians held that Nero was responsible, due to the fact he deplored Rome's ugliness and wanted to rebuild it his way. Nero needed a scape goat, and chose Christians (who weren't very well liked anyway). The Neronic persecution officially in November of 64 AD (L. Von Mosheim), and didn't end until Nero's suicide in June of AD 68, a period of almost exactly 42 months. (Revelation 13:5). The Neronic Persecution was easily the worst persecution the church has ever faced, as it nearly wiped the church out.