Evidence for God from Science

One thing I know, my God is just and He will not send someone to hell unless they really deserve it.

Also, if this is the case then are you also saying that people who died before Christ like Adam are also in hell??

Puritan Lad,
Must you persist in using Scriptures that has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Most of those you use are either 1)not dealing with infants or 2) your strectching Scriptures to make it support this unjust doctrine that is an insult to the nature of God.

those three examples were not "regenerate" as defined in new testament talk. Maybe the reformed definition.

I have to go to work. Maybe later I can show you. In fact, I'll find a reformed commentary and show you what they say of the contextual meaning, and then you can know that the doctrine of babies eternally punished cannot be supported by the contextual meaning of those Scriptures. But in your heart, you know this.

Be blessed,
SoaringEagle

For anyone who wan't others views on this, I advise you to go to

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=19

puritan lad wrote:Deborah,

I couldn't help but notice that you used no scriptures in your argument. Most who argue for the "age of accountability" don't use any scriptures, because there aren't any.

You're doing well against the 'age of accountability' theory, but not so well against the Scriptural passages I provided demonstrating that light is the grounds of responsibility. In fact, you haven't dealt with them at all.

You've given a list of passages which you interpret as supporting 'Original Sin'. Many of them simply say that we are born with a natural bias towards sin (with which I agree), but they don't say anything about incurring Adam's guilt.

SoaringEagle,

The point of these passages is that the whole world is already guilty before God. We all deserve Hell, and no exception is made anywhere for age, state of mind, etc. Hell is a just reward for our actions. A just and fair God, who is only just and fair, would not allow anyone into heaven unless he deserved it. God could condemn everyone to Hell and be totally justified in doing so. The very meaning of grace is that he is not strictly fair, but extends mercy to who He wills (Romans 9:15, 18). For those who are saved, He does NOT give us what we deserve.

You must be a dispensationalist (age of law, age of grace, etc.), or at least you sound like it. The fact is that the Old Testament saints were saved by the same grace that you and I are saved by, for "by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified" (Romans 3:20). Abraham and His descendants were saved by the gospel (Galatians 3:8), not by the law.

If you hold that the Old Testament Saints weren't born again, then you will have to conclude that they are either in Hell, or that Jesus is wrong (John 3:3).

Fortigurn, nothing you have posted suggests that anyone who doesn't understand the gospel is not held accountable. I've shown conclusively that the whole world stands guilty before God. We are by nature children of wrath, enemies of God, lovers of darkness and haters of light, and can no more choose good than a leopard can change its spots (Scripture references available upon request). This is the state of all men right from birth. He that believes not is "condemned already". We don't have to do something sinful to deserve Hell. We already deserve it because our very natures are at enmity with God. Our salvation is a gift of God alone, by grace alone, that no man can boast.

I have shown that the children of unbelievers are looked upon by God as "unclean", whereas the children of believers (or even one believer) are "holy", ie. set apart in Covenant with God (1 Corinthians 7:14). No "unclean" person has any place in the kingdom of God (Ephesians 5:5).

Now my challenge to you is to show me in the scriptures where a person who is below a certain age (SoaringEagle) or lacks understanding (Fortigurn) is somehow exempt from the wrath of God. It just isn't there.

I know that this is tough for many to swallow, but we must remain true to the scriptures. The "age of accountability" doctrine is clearly another gospel.

PS. If you think that this is only a Reformed point of view, you may want to read the Arminian Confession of Faith Section I, 9 and 10. Salvation is given only to elect infants. The Age of Accountability is as unorthodox as it is unbiblical.

God Bless,

PL

puritan lad wrote:SoaringEagle,

The point of these passages is that the whole world is already guilty before God.

They don't say that.

Fortigurn, nothing you have posted suggests that anyone who doesn't understand the gospel is not held accountable.

Could you show me what you think each one of them means please?

I've shown conclusively that the whole world stands guilty before God.

No, only the whole world which is enlightened.

We are by nature children of wrath, enemies of God, lovers of darkness and haters of light, and can no more choose good than a leopard can change its spots (Scripture references available upon request). This is the state of all men right from birth. He that believes not is "condemned already". We don't have to do something sinful to deserve Hell. We already deserve it because our very natures are at enmity with God. Our salvation is a gift of God alone, by grace alone, that no man can boast.

I have shown that the children of unbelievers are looked upon by God as "unclean", whereas the children of believers (or even one believer) are "holy", ie. set apart in Covenant with God (1 Corinthians 7:14). No "unclean" person has any place in the kingdom of God (Ephesians 5:5).

I'll deal with these tonight. Every single one of these is being wrested by you grossly. It's a result of you reading the KJV on the one hand, and following tradition on the other.

Now my challenge to you is to show me in the scriptures where a person who is below a certain age (SoaringEagle) or lacks understanding (Fortigurn) is somehow exempt from the wrath of God. It just isn't there

I gave evidence for my case, and you wouldn't even touch the passages.

The scriptures that show original sin, the fact that all of mankind is inherently evil, born into sin, are numerous. Every person who ever lived, currently lives, and every will live is guilty of sin.

When we repent we are no longer guilty of sin!
Untill the next time we um fall off the wagon so to speak. but god knew this would happen, he wants us to be conscious of our actions, take responsability for them and repent.

Ezekiel 18:30
30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

The LORD says he will judge each of us according to our own ways, he sayd REPENT and turn from your sins. then sin will not be our downfall.
Why does not the Original sin which started with Adam end with Jesus.
He is the sacrifice for all mans sins!

If children go to hell (which I don't believe), wouldn't that mean that the mentally handicapped and maybe mentally ill individuals, and brain trauma victims (who didn't accept Christ before their injuries) go to hell, too?

Mystical wrote:If children go to hell (which I don't believe), wouldn't that mean that the mentally handicapped and maybe mentally ill individuals, and brain trauma victims (who didn't accept Christ before their injuries) go to hell, too?

Yep, they're all there right now burning and screaming, according to the Reformed tradition.

And according to some modern Christians who support the 'Abraham's Bosom' theory, if you're one of the righteous you have the fantastic opportunity to watch them writhe from your comfortable seat in 'paradise', alongside God.

Seems to me that #6 and #9 support salvation for infants, as well as the idea of accountability.

Mystical wrote:Seems to me that #6 and #9 support salvation for infants, as well as the idea of accountability.

What are '#6 and #9'?

Can children go to hell?

I don't know that people can have the powers of discernment to know how God judges children, or even individual adults for that matter, seeing as God is infinite in his plans and wisdom. The afterlife verdict for a person is of eternal gravity and would seem to require the eternal, infinite, judicious wisdom only God brings to the table.

What I see so far with posts is that the question more becomes a Roschach test for how people view the nature of God. Isn't that the real crux of the matter here? What is God like? Does he have the imperious anger to burn children for eternity? Does he save them? Whatever is the answer to the question, it says a lot about his character, doesn't it. I think people already tend to have their own perception of his character, and so the answers reflect that more than anything.

Results of my personal eyeballing of the Roschach test is that it comes to mind how Jesus spoke with much wisdom (IMO) when he said again and again that people should "judge not lest they be judge", and also said, "by what measure ye mete, it shall be meted to you". I don't see that it's our role to pretend we can know other people's eternal standing before God, who cares what their age.

Also comes to mind how he surprised everyone with how open he was to befriending and extending his Godly service to everyone in sight. He who saw Jesus saw the Father. And what did they see with Jesus? They saw a guy ministering and serving the poor, to the most immoral (harlots), to the unlearned, to the greedy (publicans), to the unclean Gentiles. Surprised everyone to such an extent that the scholars and rabbis that knew all their Torah verses and Mosaic laws backwards and forwards, they couldn't believe he was from God. They even said he was from the devil! And meanwhile he was the wasn't just from God, but of God. I'm not worried about the anger of God but about daring to underestimate his goodness.

Cook wrote:Can children go to hell?

I don't know that people can have the powers of discernment to know how God judges children, or even individual adults for that matter, seeing as God is infinite in his plans and wisdom. The afterlife verdict for a person is of eternal gravity and would seem to require the eternal, infinite, judicious wisdom only God brings to the table.

What I see so far with posts is that the question more becomes a Roschach test for how people view the nature of God. Isn't that the real crux of the matter here? What is God like? Does he have the imperious anger to burn children for eternity? Does he save them? Whatever is the answer to the question, it says a lot about his character, doesn't it. I think people already tend to have their own perception of his character, and so the answers reflect that more than anything.

Results of my personal eyeballing of the Roschach test is that it comes to mind how Jesus spoke with much wisdom (IMO) when he said again and again that people should "judge not lest they be judge", and also said, "by what measure ye mete, it shall be meted to you". I don't see that it's our role to pretend we can know other people's eternal standing before God, who cares what their age.

Also comes to mind how he surprised everyone with how open he was to befriending and extending his Godly service to everyone in sight. He who saw Jesus saw the Father. And what did they see with Jesus? They saw a guy ministering and serving the poor, to the most immoral (harlots), to the unlearned, to the greedy (publicans), to the unclean Gentiles. Surprised everyone to such an extent that the scholars and rabbis that knew all their Torah verses and Mosaic laws backwards and forwards, they couldn't believe he was from God. They even said he was from the devil! And meanwhile he was the wasn't just from God, but of God. I'm not worried about the anger of God but about daring to underestimate his goodness.

Very nice post, Cook. I agree.

Fortigurn: 6 and 9 under numeral I Arminian Confession of Faith.

Cook: Beautiful words. Especially that last sentence. I'm writing it in my bible. Would you mind if I did?

I just remembered, when god flooded the earth there were bound to be children; it says that all people had been corrupted(accept Noah and his family). So apparently yes.

Edit: there were probably pregnant women at the time as well