Evidence for God from Science

prewrath rap wrote:Ok prove the AOD has occurred to me.

Yes. I thought I did, but I'll try again.

Matthew 24:15-22
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Luke 21:20-24
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The Abomination of Desolation was the armed invasion of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.

prewrath rap wrote:If you read history ie josephus you will find out that during the siege of Jerusalem the Temple was destroyed by fire before the Romans came into the city. Therefore no one ie could have proclaimed himself to be God in the temple of God. And Paul tells us clearly in 2 Thess 2:1-4

Are you referring to the "man of lawlessness"? Some suggest Herod, others suggest the High Priest. In any case, he is "already at work" in the first Century (2 Thess. 2:7) and the temple is the one standing in Paul's day. There is nothing on the Bible about a future Temple.

prewrath rap wrote:The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,

There was no darkness or blood moon on the day of pentecost. Peter was eluding to the Last days -

Says who? Certainly not Peter. Let's read it again.

Acts 2:14-21
"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ' And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'"

prewrath rap wrote:In my opinion preterism is exactly the view that paul was teaching about in 2 Thess Let no man deceive you.

That's a nice opinion.

Mystical wrote:What is the Great Commission?

The Job that Jesus gave His church to "go and make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:18-20). Postmillennialists believe that the church will succeed in the endeavor (Psalm 22:27-28, Habakkuk 2:14). Other views suggest the possibility that the church will fail, despite the fact that He is with us always, even to the end of the age.

Mystical wrote:the Second Advent?

When Christ returns in bodily form (Acts 1:11, 2 Peter 3:10)

Mystical wrote:the resurrection?

The bodily resurrection of all people on the last day (John 6:39-40, Daniel 12:13). Contrary to other endtimes views, there is only one resurrection (John 5:28-30).

Mystical wrote:and the Final Judgement (according to preterism)?

Matthew 7:21-23. The righteous are given a crown, and the wicked are cast into eternal Hell.

By the way, none of these events are mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus had specific events in mind, and they were to happen within that generation.

So, Jesus won't come riding on clouds? There won't be an increase in wars and natural disasters to precede the end? This kind of makes sense because Jesus stated that no one will know the end and it will come without warning...if these events were to happen to precede the end they would be signs and that would kind of contradict the bible.

I am confused on the AntiChrist issue. Is he supposed to stand in some temple and declare himself God? Did Nero do this?

Any other articles I can read on this--simpler the better!

Mystical wrote:So, Jesus won't come riding on clouds? There won't be an increase in wars and natural disasters to precede the end? This kind of makes sense because Jesus stated that no one will know the end and it will come without warning...if these events were to happen to precede the end they would be signs and that would kind of contradict the bible.

I am confused on the AntiChrist issue. Is he supposed to stand in some temple and declare himself God? Did Nero do this?

Any other articles I can read on this--simpler the better!

It might help to read up on the history of Praeterism as an interpretation of prophecy (it emerged in the late 16h century).

You'll find that Praeterists are very hazy on the details you mentioned, and there is a considerable difference of opinion among them as to precisely how some of these prophecies were fulfilled. There are at least half a dozen different ideas of the man of sin, for example.

What is man of sin? Can you recommend any books?

Fortigurn, that is propaganda. There were preterists fairly early in the history of the church and not just in the 16th Century.

Ark~Magic wrote:Fortigurn, that is propaganda. There were preterists fairly early in the history of the church and not just in the 16th Century.

Go right ahead and show me.

http://www.presence.tv/cms/shreds-demar.shtml

The Preterist Archive site also has quite a few others on that subject.

Ark~Magic wrote:http://www.presence.tv/cms/shreds-demar.shtml

I have read that article before. Here's an interesting quote from it:

In reality, there are only four first-century Christian writings available for study today: The Didache, 1 Clement, the Epistle of Barnabas, and the Shepherd of Hermas. Of the four, only 1 Clement and the Didache allude to Matthew 24. Ice demands that a "preterist has to prove that the early church writings interpreted passages such as Matthew 24:27, 30, 25:31, Acts 1:9—11, Revelation 1:7,[3] and 19:11—21 as fulfilled in A.D. 70."[4]

They may not, as he suggests, prove preterism, but they certainly do not prove dispensationalism.

Go ahead, read through the entire article. There is no evidence for Praeterism offered there. The best he can do is offer some speculation.

The Preterist Archive site also has quite a few others on that subject.

I have visited the Preterist Archive many times. If you think it has anything worth reading on the subject, please quote it here.

Hope this gives you enough insight:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/

Ark~Magic wrote:Hope this gives you enough insight:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/

I have read that also. Let me show you the important parts:

Besides the most recent (within 200 years) predominance of the Preteristic view of Bible prophecy, the greatest number of the earliest Christians believed that a number of, if not all, prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem.

That's all they can give you - 'a number' (but not all), of 'the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem'.

Historicism holds the same position on the Olivet prophecy. I'm sorry, that's just not good enough.

They then spend a lot of time trying to explain why there are no Praeterist expositions between the medieval era and the late 16th century. They suggest:

* That Praeterist expositions exist, but are 'hidden' in the Vatican archives (a popular argument among conspiracy theoriests)

* That the dominance of the Roman Catholic Church during this era made it impossible for Praeterist expositions

The next Praeterist exposition which they mention is - surprise, surprise - 'Vestigatio Arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi', by Alcasar (1604).

So here's the summary of that page:

* Certain of the Early Fathers believed that most of the Olivet prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century

* The first systematic Praeterist exposition does not appear until 1604

The first point doesn't prove the Praeterist case, because Historicists agree that most of the Olivet prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century (note that the Preterist Archive also acknowledges the expositions of many passages other than the Olivet prophecy which contradict the Praeterist postition).

The second point is exactly what I have already said.

That's all they can give you - 'a number' (but not all), of 'the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem'.

Not BUT NOT ALL, but IF NOT ALL, read more clearly.

Ark~Magic wrote:

That's all they can give you - 'a number' (but not all), of 'the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem'.

Not BUT NOT ALL, but IF NOT ALL, read more clearly.

Yes, I read 'if not all'. In the ideolect to which I am accustomed, this means 'even if they didn't believe all of them had been fulfilled'.

The rest of my post remains.