Evidence for God from Science

Jeff

I had a great holiday thanks.

On to your first point, this is not a circular argument but a mathematical one, which you seem to like.

Like all arguments with no inductive component, purely mathematical arguments are circular. Mathematics is not science. by itself, it is not capable of telling us anything about the universe. Read my last couple of posts under "Which types of evidence?" for an explanation of why this is. I'm not gong to set it out again.

In any case you don't appear to have understood my post at all.

I'm quitting the boards, so you'll have to nut this out for yourself. If you're really interested in a considered scientific view, I recommend "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins or "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" by Daniel Dennett.


Regards

Ray

Ber:

Sorry I thought I had responded to what you were presenting about the design argument. I guess I could also say you never responded to any of the points I brought up.

Read Dawkins long ago and if I remember right he never did answer any of the problems presented about the origin of life. The one time he tried to show how mutations could drive evolution fairly quickly he used the example of a computer program which of course would be more appropritate to the design argument.

Jeff

Just FYI the rest of this thread - which I personally think is still interesting - has been unilaterally moved to the Garbage bin.

I'm trying to wean myself off this site. I would gladly carry on this and any of the other threads I've been involved in via email.

My address is electric.ray@btopenworld.com - I would love to hear from anyone who wants to pick the discussion up. Even Troy!

Actually, no, maybe not Troy.

Ray

Hi,

I want to apologize to BER if I hurt his feelings. I know I can get pretty intense when I am arguing a point, but that is is no reason to belittle people and I think I went too far with BER. So BER, please accept my sincere apologies.

I also want to say that I admire BER's comprehension of the worldly things he would have to give up if he were to serve God. Far too many people (even many so-called Christians) think they can have one foot in God's world and the other foot in this world. The fact that BER knows this is not possible, gives me hope that he will one day accept Christ as his Savior and serve God.

To this end, I am going to pray for BER every day at noon for the next three months and I invite everyone who reads this to do the same.

Sylla

Sylla,
That's very sweet, but please be assured you didn't hurt my feelings! I like a good argument and positively revel in copping the odd bit of unneccessary flak (and I didn't feel I copped any from you Sylla - gloves or no gloves!) - I was kind of hoping for a bit more flak, matter of fact. I came here of my own volition - I have no complaints about the heat in this Kitchen.

I'm flattered that you're thinking of praying for me, but I really don't think it's necessary. If you're so minded, there are a ton of other things it would be more useful to pray for - so instead of praying for me, will you promise to pray that, say, they find a cure for Parkinson's Disease, or that the conflict in Iraq finishes peaceably soon?

If you (and him upstairs) can work some magic on something like that, then I'll gladly go without.

Best regards

Ray

The most logical and scientific arguments of creation, chance, and even our own being can only be based on what is understood by the human mind and that, can not be trusted to be an altruistic truth.
I learned this in grade school. Our science teacher (a Christian), on the first day of class, played a recording of the first landing of man on the moon. She then pulled the old school text books from the shelf, passed them out and had us read the first chapter. It explained how the great minds of science had proven that rockets into space was great science- fiction but that was all. It explained with exact scientific detail how no fuel on the planet earth could lift a vehicle out of the earth gravitational field.
The idea that we see a star and "know" it to be 13 billion light years away and there for earth is 13 billion years old and any other argument calls God a deceiver is simply not true. To say the earth may be younger than 13 billion yrs is to say the knowledge we base that statement on may be flawed.
And this argument can be applied to any logic of a order in the universe. It is only an "order" because our human mind concieves it in order and what we see no order in does not mean that there isn't an order greater than what we see or can coprehend.
My point. To speak of God as something that can be proven by science or disproven by science or simple observation is subjective. it is subjective to what we are able to observe. We can not trust our minds to gather ALL the universe and therefor we can not base our believe in God based on our observation of the universe.
Faith is the believe in things unseen or maybe a better modern phrase, Faith is the believe in things NOT observed. We are saved by faith and to trust our believe in God on anything other than faith will not save us from damnation. We are saved by faith alone. We may play around with fancy thoughts but the basic truth is simply, faith.

Hi Henry—welcome.

OhHenry wrote:We can not trust our minds to gather ALL the universe and therefor we can not base our believe in God based on our observation of the universe.

Just wondering what you make of the follow passages?

Romans 1:20—"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Psalms 19:1-4
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:21—"Test everything. Hold on to the good."

OhHenry wrote:Faith is the believe in things unseen or maybe a better modern phrase, Faith is the believe in things NOT observed. We are saved by faith and to trust our believe in God on anything other than faith will not save us from damnation. We are saved by faith alone. We may play around with fancy thoughts but the basic truth is simply, faith.

I wouldn't perhaps just limit your definition of faith, as being a blind belief in something (i.e., belief in something not observed). I am not sure whether you really did mean to define "faith" in this way (?), but I personally have never seen it defined this way in Scripture, nor understand how it is possible for someone to trust in a belief they may not believe...

The word translated "faith" in our English NT can be synonymous for "trust." It is based upon the Greek word pistis, which also has a much deeper meaning than to trust. This word also means what we are persuaded of, our convictions, what we hold to be true, and these things go hand-in-hand with our passions and desires. For example, there are those whose faith is set against God, while others have their faith in God. In this italicized example, I use "faith" in a way that runs much deeper than trusting, or simply belief. It more deeply takes on a meaning as something apart of who we are—that part of us which encompasses our convictions, persuasion, desires, passions. We can be enticed, and choose to go against these these things (our faith) within us, but they are not things that we can change within ourselves at the flick of a switch because our faith is derived from who we are.

I also think it is incomplete to say that it is faith in God that saves us. Rather it is grace by which we are saved, which is received by faith. There is a big difference. And the kind of faith that God desires is the much deeper kind I've hopefully been able to convey, not simply a faith that means to trust or believe. Trust to some extent is something we can control, that is, we can choose to trust someone or not to trust. And belief is something even Satan has. Our faith is something much deeper, it is something that grows as a part of us, and I believe it incorporates our feelings, desires and beliefs. This is the context I believe is often intended in Scripture, for example in Ephesians 2:8-9 which says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Read this verse and attach all I've been saying about faith, to "faith" in this verse. It makes a lot more sense I think, especially because how I've been describing faith can't be taken as a work.

Faith in this deeper sense is not something that can be taken as a "work", but rather it is something shaped by our experiences, knowledge and life in general. Most important to gaining this faith is seeking God, and the involvement of the Holy Spirit whose role is to guide us through experiences, and provide us with knowledge and understanding which builds our faith and draws us toward God. This faith, which is a part of us, is not something that can be categorised as a "work," but rather it is more something that becomes shaped within us.

I'm not sure whether I was able to convey this deeper understanding of faith, but when I discovered it, it was like a light switched on and I finally realised in a richer sense what it meant to be saved by grace through faith, and why having faith is not a work, not even a tiny work. One is thinking of faith wrongly if they even think it is the smallest of works. It is only after I came to understand this idea of faith, that I stopped accusing myself of whether I really did love God and so forth, even though I sinned (and knowingly sinned), even though within it disturbed me to do so, but then if really mattered to me then why did I sin? I'm sure others are familiar with this struggle, and the doubt that can arise about one's self. But we can know our faith intuitively because it is apart of who we are. And so, I no longer question my faith based on what I do, because I've come to understand that faith is something I incorrigibily know, that is, I know it in a way I cannot be mistaken because it is related to who I am.

It might seem like I'm being picky, and being a bit long-winded, which perhaps I am. But I feel that understanding more deeply what our faith really is, is just so much of a blessing to understand. So although I may have rambled on a bit, I hope I was able to convey it across meaningfully.

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote:I wouldn't perhaps just limit your definition of faith, as being a blind belief in something (i.e., belief in something not observed). I am not sure whether you really did mean to define "faith" in this way (?), but I personally have never seen it defined this way in Scripture, nor understand how it is possible for someone to trust in a belief they may not believe...

I do understand your point in general Kurieuo, and I do agree with your general 'deeper' meaning of faith. However in OhHenry's defense, the scriptures do relate faith to that which cannot be seen. It is a generally intutive concept (at least to me), because were it completely seen what faith would there be? Do I need faith to know that the chair I'm sitting on exists? Not really...

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

And in reference to 'things not seen' see: Rom 8:24; 2 Cor 4:18; 5:7; Heb 11:7, 27

Felgar wrote:Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

And in reference to 'things not seen' see: Rom 8:24; 2 Cor 4:18; 5:7; Heb 11:7, 27

I fully embrace these passages. However, you can have the conviction for things literally not seen, such as a chair or God, based on good reason. There is good reason to believe the chair is beneath me when I sit down, because I know I put it there and it won't just vanish (unless someone pranks me) as our world isn't governed by magic but rather by set laws, order and structure which God setup. Likewise, I know God is real despite not having seen Him, and I have an ever increasing hope in God because there are good reasons for it. Noone is expected to have a faith based on blindness, and I'd go further and say we are commanded to have reasons for our faith!

1 Peter 3:15—But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

Paul also writes:
Romans 1:19-20—since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The verses you provide do not back the idea of having a "belief without seeing," but rather "belief in the unseen." Also, I'm not entirely sure OhHenry really meant to portray such a meaning, but again, I don't believe this can be found in Scripture if he did (I'll eat my words if it can ). What Scripture does support is one having faith and hope in things not seen (i.e., God), but this is not based on a blind trust.

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote:The verses you provide do not back the idea of having a "belief without seeing," but rather "belief in the unseen."

Right. I agree.

I'll leave it up to OhHenry to clarify the meaning of his comment.

So many thoughtful replies! thank you and I hope others also thought about faith and Gods word in these things.
The heart of my original post is our faith should not hinge on what science can prove to us. I believe faith (trust in what we can not prove or see but hope for) is a gift from Gods Holy Spirit. That said, of course I agree with the scripture that the universe shows Gods glory but that does not mean one would see it. Many are blind to God and his works. I believe the seed of faith that our hearts say, "yes I will trust in God." must first be placed and accepted in our hearts and then, we can see the evidence of Gods glory in his works. I worry that some people can get caught-up in the idea that scientific discoveries that support the Bible are a reason to believe. Science is only information gathered and classified by man, and men make mistakes; so it follows that one could place faith in something that is in error. This year the shroud may be proven to be that of Christ so I believe. Next year it is proven the data was corrupt and assumtions wrong now my faith is in jeopardy.
Now, how do i apply the scripture of being able to give reason for my faith? By Gods action in my own life, ie... I was living by my own standards and accoplished no ending satisfaction. I then accepted Christ as God and started placing his commandments on my heart. My life changed, suddenly my view point changed and I am constantly and fully satisfied with His love guidance and acceptance, now I can see the evidence of Him in the universe.
I think using science to study the world is great, with it we can see the wounders of God but, not faith. Faith must come first then we can appreciate God in His creation.
If faith is based on anything that may contain error, and all the logic and science of man can contain error, than my faith is in error BUT if my faith is acknowledged as a gift from God and evidenced in His acts in my life than I have good reason to give others hope in Christ.
Is this more clear? Maybe I didn't expand on faith clear enough. Yes I do believe in what many call a "blind faith." In explination, I do not believe any of us can say it is of our own works that we are saved. Now if I could take credit for "figuring out" there is good reason to trust this God idea than I could say it was figured out by me and therefor take some kind of credit for my belief and therfore salvation. I believe faith is as a seed. Someone tells us about God or we read something of Him then the Holy Spirit creates within us a desire to know and eventually trust and have faith in this God. It is not something I figured out it is something that was revealed to me, in mercy by Gods Holy Spirit. Now with that kind of faith no one can attack it, it simply is by Gods own work. Again to "give reason" is to say why I believe and I say it is a gift open to all even the mentaly challanged that can not reason but, are able to accept what God shall place in there hearts and the evedence shall be in our lives.
Here is a way I just thought to say it. To give someone reason for the faith is, "I trusted and accepted and my life was changed." To me the idea that science can be used to support what God has told us is not a good enough reason to believe and trust in God, because I know science is inherantly flawed as a work of man. [/i]

To make one quick comment, perhaps two.

First, I agree that reason should be contained within ones faith, but this does not mean faith overrides reason. I may explain this further some time.

Secondly, you say faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit as many are blind to God and his works. I would essentially agree. You also point out scientific interpretations have lead to many inaccurate truths. But, does it make sense that because some truths interpreted through science were flawed, that all science should not be trusted? There are many flawed interpretations of Scripture, but does that mean we throw out every interpretation? I'm sure you will disagree, as I do. It would be a foolish thing for someone to ignore the laws of gravity, and walk off a cliff thinking they won't fall just because other truths interpreted through science may be misinterpreted. However, thankfully God, through the Holy Spirit, can build our faith in Him by revealing truths within the world (both physical and spiritual) to those who seek Him. I believe you are correct to say that a change must first happen in our heart—I believe this change is a sincere openness to God. Such allows the Holy Spirit to reveal divine truths to us, which we might otherwise be closed to. This is also perhaps why some see strong evidence for God in our world, while others who are closed to God do not. I also find it significant that knowledge of God gained from the natural world around us, is often referred to in theology as God's general revelation. Thus, we do not find God on our own, rather we are able to find God because He first reveals Himself to us. And one way we are told He reveals Himself to all is through the natural world He created. Therefore, one who is openly searching for God, can come to God, because God openly reveals Himself to us in many ways.

Kurieuo.

OhHenry wrote:I worry that some people can get caught-up in the idea that scientific discoveries that support the Bible are a reason to believe. Science is only information gathered and classified by man, and men make mistakes; so it follows that one could place faith in something that is in error. This year the shroud may be proven to be that of Christ so I believe. Next year it is proven the data was corrupt and assumtions wrong now my faith is in jeopardy.

Man, I completely agree with this. Having people place trust in these new 'revelations' (the Bible code comes to mind; contraversial as it is) I believe to be a device by Satan to lead people astray. Suddenly we're trusting in science once again, and when that shatters so too may our Faith. I always think of those people who think they know that Jesus will return in a few days, sell their house, go to a mountain, and wait. Ultimately their Faith is shattered and Satan uses that to further advantage by showing it as 'evidence' that all their beliefs are unfounded.

On the other hand, we can take comfort that science is indeed just a means of discovery - of seeking the truth. Though we should not be quick to jump to conclusions, I don't think it's wise to ignore science either. Science and the Word will converge eventually - when science is finally known to be truth it will by definition fall in line with the Word.

Thank you again for the loving replies. I think we all agree. I think we just had different view points or perspective but when all is said, I think we agree. Faith must me first and is only based first and foremost as a gift of God that we may accept, then, we can look at and study the universe to see His glory.
The only thing I would add, from my perspective, is on the suggestion that there are science laws that can not be ignored ie gravity. Gravity is a science fact, mass is pulled to the center of the rotating earth and thats a "law" of order that doesn't change - are you sure?
If a man walks out on the open sea his mass compared to the service tension of the water under his feet and with gravity all "laws" say he will sink- John walked on the water towards Christ.
I would also add when satan tempted Christ to throw Himself from the cliff and the angels would catch Him Christ replied we shall not tempt God. What I gather from those two is, our Faith in God must be more real than or belief in our gathered knowledge or assumptions based on that knowledge, even to the extent of physical laws. And we should, also, not pit faith against knowledge or allow others to draw us into a test of faith against knowledge but let or Faith always remain a gift from God that we can not explain as science but as a gift of mercy from God the Father. Merry Christmas.[/i]