Evidence for God from Science

I was raised in the Church of England which is presently on the point of schism over some important matters, one of them being the ordination of practising homosexuals.
If homosexuality was not a sin, then there would be no issue.
But my reading of Scripture (in agreement with the view of many many others) says that it definitely is a sin, and also that those in leadership roles within the church are not to be deliberately practising a sinful lifestyle.
Yes, we are all sinners, but to deliberately and stubbornly persist directly contrary to God's Will does not qualify a person to become an ordained clergyman - not in my humble opinion.
Yet there are others who will argue that it is not a sin, and will therefore contest the opposition to the ordination of clergy.

Therefore, this whole matter of whether or not the practice of homosexuality is sinful has far greater implications to the church (the body of Christians) than just being a private matter behind closed doors.

Judah wrote:I was raised in the Church of England which is presently on the point of schism over some important matters, one of them being the ordination of practising homosexuals.
If homosexuality was not a sin, then there would be no issue.
But my reading of Scripture (in agreement with the view of many many others) says that it definitely is a sin, and also that those in leadership roles within the church are not to be deliberately practising a sinful lifestyle.
Yes, we are all sinners, but to deliberately and stubbornly persist directly contrary to God's Will does not qualify a person to become an ordained clergyman - not in my humble opinion.
Yet there are others who will argue that it is not a sin, and will therefore contest the opposition to the ordination of clergy.

Therefore, this whole matter of whether or not the practice of homosexuality is sinful has far greater implications to the church (the body of Christians) than just being a private matter behind closed doors.

This is an interesting point.

Why does homosexuality seemed to be viewed as a greater sin than other sins, say stealing, or lusting after others, or lying?

People are not infallible and many sin on a daily basis, why focus on this one?

BGood, I know that all people are sinners, and persistent sinners at that.
But if you aspire to any form of leadership within the Church, then surely you would also be someone - or should also be someone - who works hard to live your life according to the way God wants you to?

So, if the Scriptures point to practising homosexuality as being abominal to God, then surely an aspiring Church leader would (or should) forgo such practice?
Of course, an aspiring Church leader would (should) make a commitment to follow Christ in all matters - which includes eliminating sinful behaviour in every aspect of life. No stealing, no coveting, no hating people, no committing adultery or fornication, no... well, you can guess all the rest.
The emphasis would be on being the person whom Christ would want one to be.
And since a homosexual lifestyle is a perpetual "living in sin" (just as would be living with your mistress) then it is such an obvious big thing that must be brought to the foot of the cross and dealt with seriously.
The same would be equally true for someone keeping a mistress or having multiple partners, etc.

So my point is that what Cougar thought should be a private matter is certainly not a just a private matter when it comes to witnessing the Christian faith as a Church leader. And as many would say, witnessing the faith as any Christian, period.

Therefore it is important to be clear about whether practising homosexuality is a sin. Because there is a lot of "vested interest" in this issue by homosexuals, there needs to be caution in determining the case. Many will say that it is not a sin - many, including homosexuals themselves (which is not surprising) - but many others, myself included, believe that Scriptures point to it being so.

I would think that someone presenting for ordination, and who is living in an adulterous relationship, is equally unsuitable. These are things that need to be dealt with first. But of course we all commit sins daily, regularly. I know it does seem to sound hypocritical, but I think the difference is that practising homosexuality (or heterosexual adultery too) is such a deliberate persistent disobedience without intention to do anything about it whereas many other sins are those that a person may be struggling with while doing their utmost to conquer.

Does that make any more sense?

Because I am honestly curious, where does it explicitly say in the Bible that is is a sin to be homosexual? The reason I say explicitly is because the Bible is a work of literature and therefore open to interpretation, no matter who you are. However, there are explicit statements (the 10 Commandments, for instance) that say precisely "Thou shalt not kill, thou shall honor thy mother and father," etc. I think that is pretty obvious and there isn't a lot of lee-way when it comes to interpretation. However, I am curious if the Bible is as explicit with the subject of homosexuality, and if not, where is it referred to within the text?

Because I am not familiar with this topic in the Bible, I happen to think that homosexuality is a kind-of wishy-washy subject when it comes to sin. No one argues that killing someone or stealing is a sin... as I said before, I think that is blatantly obvious based on the text. But again, if anyone could enlighten me to where it explicitly says homosexuality is a sin, I would be interested to see this.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

lie
ב
shâkab
shaw-kab'
A primitive root; to lie down (for rest, sexual connection, decease or any other purpose): - X at all, cast down, ([over-]) lay (self) (down), (make to) lie (down, down to sleep, still, with), lodge, ravish, take rest, sleep, stay.

Further to what IRQ has just posted...

If you wished to argue that the word used in those two verses from Leviticus - lie (shâkab) - means simply to rest, not necessarily to have a form of sexual connection with, then you would be ignoring the context in which those verses appear.

Leviticus 20:10-22 as an entire passage is one that quite explicitly deals with sexual relationships. Therefore it is logical to believe that verses 13 and 22 do so as well. Also, I understand there was no term such as "homosexual" or its equivalent to be used in order to make the meaning more explicit, and so "to lie with mankind as to lie with womankind" is about as explicit as the language permits in order to impart the meaning we believe it has. Students of Hebrew might like to comment further on this matter.
As Kurieuo points out on the previous page "Makes you wonder why there are those pro-gay in Canada who want Leviticus 20:13 banned." There would surely be no wish for them to do so if it did not mean sexual connection.

In the New Testament Jesus specifically refers to immorality as being sinful and abhorrent in the eyes of God. He did not need to list every behaviour or practice that was deemed "immorality" as it was already made clear in the Old Testament. Again, there is no one word in the NT Greek either to describe this kind of sexual connection, but Leviticus had already described the behaviour and Jesus did not say "everything except that particular behaviour" when He was referring to immorality.

Another point to remember is that the Bible regards sexual intercourse (or intimacy) to be confined to marriage. Marriage is regarded as the relationship between a man and woman, not a relationship between same gender partners. Sex outside of marriage is considered immorality - adultery and fornication. Sex between two people of the same gender is outside marriage.

Before anyone wishes to clobber me for pointing out this often unpopular notion, I would like to mention that it is God who made the rules - not mankind. As I read it in the Scriptures, these are the things He is saying.

Yup, and let's not forget Romans 1:26-27, rendered by the NIV as follows:

• Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

We also have homosexuality condemned in Paul's lists of people who will not inherit the Kingdom:

• Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, (1 Cor 6:9, NASB)

and

• immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching (1 Tim. 1:10, NASB)

The word for "homosexual" in each of these verses is αρσενοκοιται (arsenokoitai). The NIDNT clearly defines this word as "male homosexual," saying:

• In Rom. 1:27 arsen is used 3x to denote (homo)sexual perversion as a result of worshiping the creature rather than the Creator. Because human beings have put something else in the place that properly belongs to God, natural male-female relationships have been altered. Paul also usees the noun arsenokoites (a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite) as one who is excluded from the kingdom (1 Cor. 6:9) and condemned by the Mosaic Law (1 Tim. 1:10; cf. Gen 19; Lev 18:22, 29; 20:13; Deut. 23:17)

I don't see my copy of Louw and Nida here, but I suspect they would say the same thing.

Ok, but does this mean that "to lie with mankind" is a sin for which someone will surely go to hell? I definitely do not see that in the scripture you provided.

And, really my only point is that homosexuality is a wishy-washy subject. If those are the only places in the Bible that imply homosexuality is a sin, then can you see why it is an issue? There isn't anywhere that says "Thou shalt not be homosexual". The scripture you provided, is quite obviously up for interpretation much more than, for instance, the Ten Commandments... wouldn't you agree?

However, I do know that we should "judge not, lest ye be judged". Therefore I don't think it is up to anyone on this plane of being to distinguish who is and is not going to hell... leave that up to the guy that actually knows. Disagree with actions, behaviors, etc. but do not judge.

Nothing is "wishy-washy" about homosexual behaviour. Every sin is serious in that it comes between ourselves and God. The Bible does not simply "imply" that homosexual behaviour is a sin. Those verses that IRQ and Jac have quoted are quite specific, and to not appreciate that looks rather like an attempt to wriggle out of that fact.

If someone wishes to live in obedience to God, then any sin needs to be addressed, no matter which one it is. If in doubt, I personally would prefer to err on the side of caution rather than to say "maybe, maybe not - and I'll assume it isn't" - especially when my better judgement, let alone all these Bible verses, does say to me that God regards it as a sin.

I don't believe that all sinners, even the very worst ones, will go to hell. Those who have accepted Christ as their saviour are the case in point. So I expect to find (assuming I get there myself, believing that I will) many homosexuals in heaven - just as I would expect to find anyone who, being a sinner in this life as we all are, has accepted Christ and is justified and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Of course, by then they will no longer be homosexuals since we will all be made perfect as He is perfect.

But that doesn't mean that one who has accepted Christ should continue to live in sin. Far from it. We are to strive to be holy as He is holy. With the grace of God we are to turn from sin and follow Christ, living according to God's will.

The more you love God, the more you will want to do His will - in other words, turn from whatever He declares is sinful, and seek what He would have you do instead and pursue a right relationship with Him. If the Bible states all these things about homosexual behaviour, then I figure that behaving in that way is not what God would have us do. And the same goes for all sin, not just this particular sexual sin.

Thou shalt not lie is one of the ten commandments. Surely it is greater than homosexuality. Doesn't Jesus teach us to forgive? What does it mean to fogive but then not allow a sinner to preach? Is your pastor perfect?

Bgood, All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. To be a repeat offender and continue in sin is not living for Christ and is not setting an example for the congregation.

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

God will not be mocked. Those that continue in the sin God alone will judge, as for us believers we are instructed by Christ Himself not to tolorate such things.

It's getting to the point now where God is seperating the wheat from the chaff. As for me and my house we wish to be counted worthy, therfore refuse to conform to the things of this world, they shall pass away, but the Word endureth forever. Amen.

Should a pastor then be a drug dealer, a member of some other organized crime gang, a brothel keeper, a predatory paedophile... you name it?
A pastor should be someone who is striving to be holy, a goal that all Christians are required to work towards. Deliberately disobeying God in one's lifestyle is a serious matter.

This is not about being sorry and asking forgiveness. A practising homosexual who chooses to remain in such a relationship is not someone who is saying sorry, not genuinely sorry. The ongoing choice of remaining in such a relationship is a decision to constantly disobey God. These lifestyle sins are not quite the same as those sins that catch us out when we are genuinely trying to conquer them.

Yes, those who confess and repent will receive God's forgiveness - but to repent means to turn from that sin and not go there again. And of course we all fail, over and over and over again. But can you say that someone who persists in living with a homosexual partner is someone who has shown repentance for their sin? If they repent, they will be putting obedience to God first and foremost and ending such a relationship. Otherwise there is no genuine repentance. You cannot expect God to forgive when there is no sincerity. God is not mocked, the Bible says. That person will have that disobedience forever in the way of a truly restored relationship with the Father, and that is not the person to lead others in the Christian faith. That is not an indication of someone following Christ.

God is not just a God of love (and certainly not that permissive variety that some claim to be love) but He is righteous and holy. If you love God, you will want most dearly not to sin against Him. If you put some sinful lifestyle choice before obedience to God, then you are doing a serious wrong in your relationship with Him. That is not desirable in one who would be a pastor or clergyman. Indeed, many would claim it to be spiritually dangerous and cause harm to the Church.

So it is not about if or not I or anyone else can forgive another - that has very little to do with it. It is entirely about the relationship that the pastor himself has with God.

Cougar wrote:Ok, but does this mean that "to lie with mankind" is a sin for which someone will surely go to hell? I definitely do not see that in the scripture you provided.

Jac3510 wrote:Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, (1 Cor 6:9, NASB)

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:Thou shalt not lie is one of the ten commandments. Surely it is greater than homosexuality. Doesn't Jesus teach us to forgive? What does it mean to fogive but then not allow a sinner to preach? Is your pastor perfect?

Paul says some very interesting words regarding such matters in 1 Corinthians 5. It is not true one should never judge another, for those within the church should be protected from others who may lead them astray. Therefore the Church has no right judging those outside of itself, it has every right to judge those within it for the benefit of others.

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Kurieuo

Good find Kurieuo!