Odds Jesus is God?

[Resident Atheist]

http://www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/evidence.htm
http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bi ... idence.php

Btw, i few of those touch the topic whthor they really existed, but christiananswers has tombs of some people.

<b>Don't really care. Your standards of evidence are waaaay too low, and have little to do with the thing at hand. You think that if you can prove some mundane basis that it proves the rest. I'm waiting for proof of the rest.</b>

Also, i dont expect you to read them all right now, but i read a site which im trying to find that proves they existed and tis highly unlikely they died for a lie. And theres other historical documents that record is quite obvious they were writing about Jesus.

<b>No, there are some 15 supposed "sons" of god with similar stories. Also the stories of Horus, Krishna and Mithra are <i>very</i> similar as well.

And they didn't have to die for a lie. Isn't it more reasonable to believe that christ was raised to believe he was the son of god (and thought he was communicating with him the same way you percieve yourself as doing) and that his followers believed it too (people have believed much stranger things) and they died for that, then years later when it was all being written down the surviving gospel authors embellished a little to spice up the story?</b>

[Resident Atheist]

Resident, ever hear of the Preterist view? all of the things described there have already happened in the Apostle's lifetime, except the second coming of Christ (which isnt what Jesus talks about in those passages).

Anyway, many would argue that "generation" means "race", or a certain group of people. for more on preterism, go here
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?t=667


Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


The Last Apostle (John) saw the second coming, through revelations, which he talks about in the Book of Relevalation.

So christ was just screwing with their heads then? Misleading them to think the end-times were near.

Gotcha.

[Jay_7]

Oh. Thanks for saying that, got some reading for you to do.


http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html (Go down and youll see questions, click answer to the ones you want to know.)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/res3.html
http://www.worldinvisible.com/apologet/bible.htm
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d740101.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t002.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t009.html

I want you to read all of the above.

I skimmed through about 2/3 of them, and found them very lacking. One basically went "the bible says all of these things that are proven to be true, so that proves that everything else it says is true". WRONG. Huge logical fallacy. That's like saying that if we find a mountain called Olympus that it validates greek mythology, it's just crazy. Nobody is claiming that the bible is lies beginning to end.

Another basically used the same standards to substantiate impossible claims like rising from the dead etc that you use to prove that X cesar was having an affair with X woman. Impossible and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Show me an angel and I'll admit they exist. Show me someone rise from the dead after their brainstem has been liquified and I'll admit 100% that the resurrection is possible.

Have any evidences like that?

Skimming wont do it, you have to search into it more.

[Jay_7]

Don't really care. Your standards of evidence are waaaay too low, and have little to do with the thing at hand. You think that if you can prove some mundane basis that it proves the rest. I'm waiting for proof of the rest.

No. I have alot of proof that supports my case, but its very difficult when people like you just come on up into a thread and start stating things ehre and there, it gets confusing, plus all more proof is all over the place on my pc, im working on getting it togethor one day.


LOL. No other religions claimed to be sons of God. Only Jesus did, and other religions have alot more faults in them then Christianity.

And they didn't have to die for a lie. Isn't it more reasonable to believe that christ was raised to believe he was the son of god (and thought he was communicating with him the same way you percieve yourself as doing) and that his followers believed it too (people have believed much stranger things) and they died for that, then years later when it was all being written down the surviving gospel authors embellished a little to spice up the story?

Trust me, once you know some certian truths like i do about how its highly improbable for that to be the case, that statment will mean nothing, but im not gonig into that right now, im going to get my evidences and all togethor before i go into this with anyone.

[Jay_7]

Resident, ever hear of the Preterist view? all of the things described there have already happened in the Apostle's lifetime, except the second coming of Christ (which isnt what Jesus talks about in those passages).

Anyway, many would argue that "generation" means "race", or a certain group of people. for more on preterism, go here
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... .php?t=667


Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


The Last Apostle (John) saw the second coming, through revelations, which he talks about in the Book of Relevalation.

So christ was just screwing with their heads then? Misleading them to think the end-times were near.

Gotcha.

He didnt say they were near. Read into stuff for yourself before saying your c.rap.

[Resident Atheist]

Skimming wont do it, you have to search into it more.

I've been reading similar sites for years, I've yet to find compelling evidence. It's like trying to prove that magic spells really exist by proving that someone named merlin really lived and breathed a long time ago, and that people really existed and wrote about his magic.

It's beside the point.

[Jay_7]

Mark 9:1
And he (Jesus) said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all (the second coming, the resurrection, the judgment, etc) be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

John 5:25-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

James 5:8
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

1John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is near. Therefore be of sound mind, self-controlled, and sober in prayer.

Happy?

I don't think he would be, i'm certainly not. I mean, they arent false claims, and it is soon because according too scientest the world could end in billlions of years, but thousands is soon if you look at it that way.

Why not? Fifteen other people's apostles did. Or don't you know about the other supposed "sons" of god?

Listen. Your saying that they may have lived for a lie. Well, if you say that, your saying Jesus lived, if Jesus lived, the scientificly proven document that predicted Jesus coming in precise detail 500 years BC came true, which means whatever he said was true, and the word of God. Plus theres a whole range of other proofs for any other questions you may now ask, "what if Jesus was lying'? and so on..

[August]

Skimming wont do it, you have to search into it more.

I've been reading similar sites for years, I've yet to find compelling evidence. It's like trying to prove that magic spells really exist by proving that someone named merlin really lived and breathed a long time ago, and that people really existed and wrote about his magic.

It's beside the point.

By what standard do you believe something to be true or not?

[Jay_7]

Skimming wont do it, you have to search into it more.

I've been reading similar sites for years, I've yet to find compelling evidence. It's like trying to prove that magic spells really exist by proving that someone named merlin really lived and breathed a long time ago, and that people really existed and wrote about his magic.

It's beside the point.

Whatever. Bibles different to all that rubbish. Many sites have proof if you look harder, and its illogical to not agree to many.

This arguments getting quite ridiculous though, its basically bringing us to the point of faith.

[Resident Atheist]

LOL. No other religions claimed to be sons of God. Only Jesus did,

<b>What? Other people claimed to be <i>the messiah</i>, and even more mythologies have sent supposed sons of god. One of the similarities between christ and Horus (I believe) was that they were both supposed to be the man/god second part of a three part trinity god.</b>

and other religions have alot more faults in them then Christianity.

<b>Oh yeah, you've verified this, have you? I've actually heard that the Koran has fewer mistakes/loopholes than the bible, and I know for a fact that Buddhism is backed by logic, philosophy <i>and</i> physics.</b>

Trust me, once you know some certian truths like i do about how its highly improbable for that to be the case, that statment will mean nothing, but im not gonig into that right now, im going to get my evidences and all togethor before i go into this with anyone.

<b>Nothing is less probable than that an infinite, inter-galactic superbeing is responsible for the narration of a book. That is literally infinitely improbable.</b>

[Jay_7]

What? Other people claimed to be <i>the messiah</i>, and even more mythologies have sent supposed sons of god. One of the similarities between christ and Horus (I believe) was that they were both supposed to be the man/god second part of a three part trinity god.

I know i know. But they never said they were the son of God.

Oh yeah, you've verified this, have you? I've actually heard that the Koran has fewer mistakes/loopholes than the bible, and I know for a fact that Buddhism is backed by logic, philosophy <i>and</i> physics.</b>

Yep. Many other religions believe the earth was held up by elephants and so on.

[Resident Atheist]

I don't think he would be, i'm certainly not. I mean, they arent false claims, and it is soon because according too scientest the world could end in billlions of years, but thousands is soon if you look at it that way.

<b>What are you talking about? He said it would end in their lifetimes, not thousands of years ago. He didn't say "it'll happen eventually".</b>

Listen. Your saying that they may have lived for a lie. Well, if you say that, your saying Jesus lived, if Jesus lived, the scientificly proven document that predicted Jesus coming in precise detail 500 years BC came true, which means whatever he said was true, and the word of God. Plus theres a whole range of other proofs for any other questions you may now ask, "what if Jesus was lying'? and so on..

<b>Didn't you just hear me? <i>Fifteen</i> other men fit the prophecy, had apostles, claimed to be the messiah, and supposedly performed most of the miracles christ did, then were crucified and rose from the dead.</b>

[August]

<b>Didn't you just hear me? <i>Fifteen</i> other men fit the prophecy, had apostles, claimed to be the messiah, and supposedly performed most of the miracles christ did, then were crucified and rose from the dead.</b>

Which 15 are those, in what ways did they fulfill prophesy? Please be specific.

[Resident Atheist]

By what standard do you believe something to be true or not?

Any reliable, proven standard. The scientific method, diametrically opposed logic, falsifiability, the ability to use a claim to make future predictions greatly lends to credibility.

Like I said, Jehovah isn't even a valid hypothesis. Or in layman's terms, a "maybe this is so".

It's not falsifiable, it's not subject to experimentation etc, etc.

What criteria do you use?

[Jay_7]

What are you talking about? He said it would end in their lifetimes, not thousands of years ago. He didn't say "it'll happen eventually".

Generation wasnt meant in the 100 years sence, ive read somewhere of what it meant, ill try find it.

Didn't you just hear me? Fifteen other men fit the prophecy, had apostles, claimed to be the messiah, and supposedly performed most of the miracles christ did, then were crucified and rose from the dead.

I sure did. No, they were not risen from the dead, Jesus was the only one. That just proves your lack of study in this area.