Yepryo dokomi wrote:also, the treasuerer was taking from it, every chance he got. and still Jesus had money to work with, doesnt that say that he had a lot of money? i mean, he was losing a lot, but still had much to go around.
Was Christ poor!?
http://www.letusreason.org/Wf15.htm
Mark 6:32-44: (the miracle of the 5,000 fed) We find Jesus asking the disciples to feed the hungry people who have sat all day listening to His teaching. They respond by thinking what they possess in money to have this ability. (v.37)[Two hundred pennyworth of bread] About twenty-eight dollars a fair amount but not in any way riches for thirteen people. The disciples had a common purse in which they carried their money, consisting of the donations of their friends and money to be given to the poor ( John 12:6; Matt 26:8-9; Luke 8:3), though they had this amount in their possession. Philip asked Jesus the question (John 6:7) —about them taking ALL that they had (twenty eight dollars) and spending it on a single meal?
Jesus sent the disciples out without money ( Mt. 10:9-12) “ Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out.” They did not rent a room but depended on others hospitality and the Lord for their provision. The money belt was a small purse that would carry very little coins, they did not have dollar bills then but coins.
Before Jesus is betrayed ( Luke 22:35-36) And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.” If the disciples were well to do they wouldn't need to sell one of their two garments for a small sword. Jesus also reminded them of how they were sent out with nothing and God met their needs. This again proves they did not have enormous wealth.
The Temple tax which Peter paid For Jesus and himself did not come out of the pocket of their treasurer. Matt. 17:24- 27: “When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?" He said, "Yes." V.27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for me and you." If the disciples had money as Faith teachers claim Jesus would not have had Peter go fish for a coin, they would have already had it. This is one of the miracles we don't see anyone copy today, despite their claims of “we can do all that Jesus did.”
When Mary took a pound of very costly oil and (Jn.12) anointed the feet of Jesus, Judas Iscariot, said, “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.” If all this money was available there would be no need to go out and find more. Luke 22:4-5: “So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.” Mark 14:10-11: “Then Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Him to them. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. So he sought how he might conveniently betray Him.”
Matt 26:9. [Sold for much] Mark and John say for three hundred pence-that is about 9 British pounds. John 12:5. [Three hundred pence] About $40,00 .(from Barnes' Notes)
What would this be worth today with inflation? This was a large sum. Actually I have heard this estimated as a years wages.
Here Judas was the treasurer and complained about this amount of money used on Jesus. Why would he if they were so rich. He later was enticed to betray Jesus for only thirty pieces of silver much less than even she gave in the oil. A shekel-a silver coin amounted to about 50 cents. The whole sum which Judas sold out the Lord was $15, or 3 British pounds. If the disciples were rich, than this would never have been a temptation. He would much more than this with what he carried.
What does Jesus teach about riches
Kenneth Hagin claims not only for himself but for the bibles written promise, "He [also] wants His children to eat the best, He wants them to wear the best clothing, He wants them to drive the best cars, and He wants them to have the best of everything." (Quoted by D.L. McConnell a different Gospel p.175)
Did not Jesus say, "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:20) Whose right? Was it riches he was promising or spiritual blessings?
Throughout the Bible there is a constant warning of riches being a snare. David who had it all prayed that the Lord would not give him too little, that he would be in need or too much that he would forget God. In the middle ages the church thought that for one to to be poor was equivalent to being spiritual. Today it is on the opposite extreme, to be rich shows God's blessings. They have fixed their eyes on earth and become subject to the earthly law of gravity, instead of fixing their eyes to heaven above by true faith.
Do riches prove God's blessings? Nothing could be further from the truth. Their are many a heathen and atheist who are rich despite their disbelief. Prosperity is not an absolute to show Gods hand in ones life, it might in fact show the opposite.
Proverbs 16:30: tells those who pursue God to get wisdom instead of gold.
Matt 6:19-21: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; "but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Jonathan Edwards said "Aim at heaven and you get earth thrown in, aim at earth and you get neither."
Matt 13:22-23: "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
V.23"But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
Avanzini distorts this scripture like no other saying that the seed is money and that we can get a hundred fold return. Do we see this taught by Jesus or the disciples? No! This is an insertion to attract increase, mainly to himself.
Jesus explains the parable of the sower by saying in vs.19 the seed is the word and before that he explains how the people need ears to hear so they can understand and be fruitful. In vs. 37 he explains further that the sower of the good seed is the son of man which is either Jesus himself or those who preach the same message of his word. The good seeds are the sons of the kingdom. In other words those born of incorruptible seed which is the word of God 1 Pt.1:23 are in the world as a growing plant to produce fruit of the spirit.
Matt 10:38: "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. Mark 8:34-37: "When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? "Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? In other words the pursuit to be financially free and keep on gaining is not what we are to be focused on. Denying oneself may mean to give up a lot. It depends on how attached and attracted ones soul is to the comfortable things of life.
Luke 12:15-21: And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses." Then He spoke a parable to them, about a rich man who was planning his future expansion, he sums it up in vs.21"So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." Do we ever hear sermons on the TV of being rich toward God without money? I think not!
Luke 14:33: "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple." This again is a hyperbole. Give up your possessions for self use (sometimes completely divorcing oneself from them) so as not trusting in the world but God alone.
Mark 6:32-44: (the miracle of the 5,000 fed) We find Jesus asking the disciples to feed the hungry people who have sat all day listening to His teaching. They respond by thinking what they possess in money to have this ability. (v.37)[Two hundred pennyworth of bread] About twenty-eight dollars a fair amount but not in any way riches for thirteen people. The disciples had a common purse in which they carried their money, consisting of the donations of their friends and money to be given to the poor ( John 12:6; Matt 26:8-9; Luke 8:3), though they had this amount in their possession. Philip asked Jesus the question (John 6:7) —about them taking ALL that they had (twenty eight dollars) and spending it on a single meal?
Jesus sent the disciples out without money ( Mt. 10:9-12) “ Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out.” They did not rent a room but depended on others hospitality and the Lord for their provision. The money belt was a small purse that would carry very little coins, they did not have dollar bills then but coins.
Before Jesus is betrayed ( Luke 22:35-36) And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.” If the disciples were well to do they wouldn't need to sell one of their two garments for a small sword. Jesus also reminded them of how they were sent out with nothing and God met their needs. This again proves they did not have enormous wealth.
The Temple tax which Peter paid For Jesus and himself did not come out of the pocket of their treasurer. Matt. 17:24- 27: “When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?" He said, "Yes." V.27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for me and you." If the disciples had money as Faith teachers claim Jesus would not have had Peter go fish for a coin, they would have already had it. This is one of the miracles we don't see anyone copy today, despite their claims of “we can do all that Jesus did.”
When Mary took a pound of very costly oil and (Jn.12) anointed the feet of Jesus, Judas Iscariot, said, “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.” If all this money was available there would be no need to go out and find more. Luke 22:4-5: “So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.” Mark 14:10-11: “Then Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Him to them. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. So he sought how he might conveniently betray Him.”
Matt 26:9. [Sold for much] Mark and John say for three hundred pence-that is about 9 British pounds. John 12:5. [Three hundred pence] About $40,00 .(from Barnes' Notes)
What would this be worth today with inflation? This was a large sum. Actually I have heard this estimated as a years wages.
Here Judas was the treasurer and complained about this amount of money used on Jesus. Why would he if they were so rich. He later was enticed to betray Jesus for only thirty pieces of silver much less than even she gave in the oil. A shekel-a silver coin amounted to about 50 cents. The whole sum which Judas sold out the Lord was $15, or 3 British pounds. If the disciples were rich, than this would never have been a temptation. He would much more than this with what he carried.
What does Jesus teach about riches
Kenneth Hagin claims not only for himself but for the bibles written promise, "He [also] wants His children to eat the best, He wants them to wear the best clothing, He wants them to drive the best cars, and He wants them to have the best of everything." (Quoted by D.L. McConnell a different Gospel p.175)
Did not Jesus say, "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:20) Whose right? Was it riches he was promising or spiritual blessings?
Throughout the Bible there is a constant warning of riches being a snare. David who had it all prayed that the Lord would not give him too little, that he would be in need or too much that he would forget God. In the middle ages the church thought that for one to to be poor was equivalent to being spiritual. Today it is on the opposite extreme, to be rich shows God's blessings. They have fixed their eyes on earth and become subject to the earthly law of gravity, instead of fixing their eyes to heaven above by true faith.
Do riches prove God's blessings? Nothing could be further from the truth. Their are many a heathen and atheist who are rich despite their disbelief. Prosperity is not an absolute to show Gods hand in ones life, it might in fact show the opposite.
Proverbs 16:30: tells those who pursue God to get wisdom instead of gold.
Matt 6:19-21: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; "but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Jonathan Edwards said "Aim at heaven and you get earth thrown in, aim at earth and you get neither."
Matt 13:22-23: "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
V.23"But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
Avanzini distorts this scripture like no other saying that the seed is money and that we can get a hundred fold return. Do we see this taught by Jesus or the disciples? No! This is an insertion to attract increase, mainly to himself.
Jesus explains the parable of the sower by saying in vs.19 the seed is the word and before that he explains how the people need ears to hear so they can understand and be fruitful. In vs. 37 he explains further that the sower of the good seed is the son of man which is either Jesus himself or those who preach the same message of his word. The good seeds are the sons of the kingdom. In other words those born of incorruptible seed which is the word of God 1 Pt.1:23 are in the world as a growing plant to produce fruit of the spirit.
Matt 10:38: "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. Mark 8:34-37: "When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? "Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? In other words the pursuit to be financially free and keep on gaining is not what we are to be focused on. Denying oneself may mean to give up a lot. It depends on how attached and attracted ones soul is to the comfortable things of life.
Luke 12:15-21: And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses." Then He spoke a parable to them, about a rich man who was planning his future expansion, he sums it up in vs.21"So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." Do we ever hear sermons on the TV of being rich toward God without money? I think not!
Luke 14:33: "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple." This again is a hyperbole. Give up your possessions for self use (sometimes completely divorcing oneself from them) so as not trusting in the world but God alone.
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ryo dokomi
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wouldnt that prove that Jesus did have money?Jbuza wrote:Jesus sent the disciples out without money ( Mt. 10:9-12) “ Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out.” They did not rent a room but depended on others hospitality and the Lord for their provision. The money belt was a small purse that would carry very little coins, they did not have dollar bills then but coins.
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7
it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
Re: Was Christ poor!?
I wouldn't call that a treasurer as such. And the money certainly wasn't considered by Christ to be his or the disciples' - according to John it belonged to the poor.bizzt wrote:The question is was Jesus Poor. I don't think he was because they/he had a Treasurer. No matter how you look at it Jesus and his followers/Disciples had a Treasurer
Joh 12:6 Now this he said, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the bag took away what was put therein.
Not a Very good one but a Treasurer none the less.
How does the fact that the disciples were instructed to carry no money prove that Jesus had money?ryo dokomi wrote:wouldnt that prove that Jesus did have money?Jbuza wrote:Jesus sent the disciples out without money ( Mt. 10:9-12) “ Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out.” They did not rent a room but depended on others hospitality and the Lord for their provision. The money belt was a small purse that would carry very little coins, they did not have dollar bills then but coins.
We know that Jesus and the disciples had money in the sense that they had a bag into which donations went, but we also know that they did not consider that money theirs (well Judas did!), but that it belonged to the poor.
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ryo dokomi
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im sorry, i didnt know that, i havent read that, could you provide scripture so i can verify. thanks.Fortigurn wrote:How does the fact that the disciples were instructed to carry no money prove that Jesus had money?ryo dokomi wrote:wouldnt that prove that Jesus did have money?Jbuza wrote:Jesus sent the disciples out without money ( Mt. 10:9-12) “ Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out.” They did not rent a room but depended on others hospitality and the Lord for their provision. The money belt was a small purse that would carry very little coins, they did not have dollar bills then but coins.
We know that Jesus and the disciples had money in the sense that they had a bag into which donations went, but we also know that they did not consider that money theirs (well Judas did!), but that it belonged to the poor.
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7
it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
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ryo dokomi
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neither of those verses state that all the money that Jesus had what for the poor only...click HERE and HERE to see what i mean.
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7
it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
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ryo dokomi
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heck if anyone knows...just another mystery of God in my book...anyway, i was just stating that it doesnt say that it was for the poor, he could have been saving it for something. 
like a new cloak...jk, trying to lighten the mood. but like i said, its just another mystery in my book.
like a new cloak...jk, trying to lighten the mood. but like i said, its just another mystery in my book.Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7
it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
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N4SC
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Re: Was Christ poor!?
He wasn't rich, and His purpose in life didn't require Him to have anything but the essentials. He was a carpenter, and probably made an honest living. In any case, wether or not He was poor is kind of irrelevant.
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zoegirl
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Re: Was Christ poor!?
Wow this is one old thread!!!
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"
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Gabrielman
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Re: Was Christ poor!?
Yeah it is old, but it's nice to see some older threads about such topics. I really should search more. There are new people here, I have only been here a few months, so it would be good for us to put our 2 cents in. LOL, but yeah... that is one old thread. Though wasn't there somewhere that Jesus tells His disciples to abandon all their things aside from the cloths on their backs and the sandles on their feet? I know they were all already poor, including Jesus. Was it for their humility? Hmmm.... now I am thinking... not good. If you see smoke coming out of my head, hit the dirt!
God bless!
God bless!
Once I was trapped in a perpetual night, without even a star to light the sky. Now I stand in the glory of the Son, and not even a faint shadow of darkness remains.
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natcat86
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Re: Was Christ poor!?
The people who are preaching the so called Prosperity Gospel are all a lot richer than those they are preaching it too. It a pyramid scheme. If you only ever have just enough to get by you need to have faith, patience, you need to look after things you do have, be greatful for everything and I think you learn to appreciate relationships over stuff. If wealth is a sign of God's blessing why was Howard Hughes so rich. If poverty is a sign of lack of God's blessings why was Mother Thereasa so poor?