Evidence for God from Science

Jac3510,

The problem that is apparent is your difficulty with the Biblical concept of regretting your sins (sorrow for breaking God's law), and turning around (repenting and committing to become obedient), and walking the other way (which logically means living by God's word including His commands).

You attempt to re-interpret the Scriptures and the meaning of words to support your view in every case in our discussion.

Repent is precisely what we must all do daily, for we who strive to live by every word of God (Matt. 4:4) still make mistakes and commit sin and thus require forgiveness. Thus, repentance is not a one-time act but part of the process of continual conversion we must go through as we are led out of Egypt (sin), through the wilderness (this present evil age), and towards the promised land (the Kingdom of God by means of the first resurrection).

There are sins that cannot be forgiven and these are the ones we do not repent of. Sinners will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-26).

It is written,
Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him (John 9:31, NKJV).

One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination (Prov. 28:9, NKJV)

The law is for sinners — those who break the law and must now repent and turn.
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust (1 Tim. 1:8-11, NKJV).

Use whatever translation you fancy for Matthew 9:13. You have still to answer the question.

R7-12

The problem that is apparent is your difficulty with the Biblical concept of regretting your sins (sorrow for breaking God's law), and turning around (repenting and committing to become obedient), and walking the other way (which logically means living by God's word including His commands).

I have absolutely no problem with the concept of being sorry for my sins and that sorrow prompting me to repent. I have a problem with saying that is necessary for eschatological salvation when the Bible doesn't say it is. What the Bible DOES say repentance is necessary for is deliverance from judgment. 2 Cor. 7:8-10 and Rev. 2:4-5, among other passages demonstrate this beautifully.

You attempt to re-interpret the Scriptures and the meaning of words to support your view in every case in our discussion.

No, sir. I simply take the Scriptures to mean what they say. If you have a problem with my exegesis, point it out. Until then, I stand by my interpretations. In fact, if we are going to start challenging like this, then I again bring up my question asked previously. If you can't answer, or refuse to, then I will take it as a full concession to my position:

"Now, if these people were already saved, as these previous two verses prove, then how did their repentance at this letter lead them to salvation?"

I can answer that easily. If, though, salvation must refer to eschatological salvation, as it does for you, we have a serious problem.

Repent is precisely what we must all do daily, for we who strive to live by every word of God (Matt. 4:4) still make mistakes and commit sin and thus require forgiveness. Thus, repentance is not a one-time act but part of the process of continual conversion we must go through as we are led out of Egypt (sin), through the wilderness (this present evil age), and towards the promised land (the Kingdom of God by means of the first resurrection).

Repentance is directly tied to progressive sanctification. I do not doubt this at all, and I would strongly advocate such a position. However, progressive sanctification is not the same as positional sanctification and/or justification.

In all this, I am STILL waiting on a passage that tells me that repentance from sin is necessary for eschatological salvation.

There are sins that cannot be forgiven and these are the ones we do not repent of. Sinners will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-26).

We've already covered this, R7, and you didn't deal with my reply last time. Rather than re-explain my position, I'll just quote myself.

I wrote:

• Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God (1 Cor. 6:9-11, NKJV).

Ah, I see. So, not only must I repent, but if I ever commit a single sin . . . let's say I covet something . . . well, apparently I have lost my salvation. Because, after all, I have coveted, and those who covet "will not inherit the kingdom of God."

OK, so if that isn't what the verse means, then what is it? Well, there are two possibilities. The first has to do with the word "inherit." You will notice that these verses nowhere speak of condemnation. There is little doubt that our inheritance in heaven can be lost, for as 1 Corinthians 3:15 says, "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (NASB) And we are told by Jesus that we can store up treasures in Heaven (Matt. 6:20), so it follows that some will have greater rewards than others. Given this, if a Christian continues in the activities listed, then Paul says he will not inherit the kingdom, neither his rewards nor his authority.

The other possibility lies in the realm of identity. Notice that Paul says "And such were some of you." Some of these people could have been put in that list. But, no longer. Now, unless you believe one can lose his salvation, why the warning against going back? And it is obvious that this passage is a warning, for it is in the middle of a series of rebukes. They were dragging one another before the courts and falling back into sexual sin. But, even if one did commit adultery, he was not an adulterer. Paul recognized a basic truth in himself that he still sinned, but when he sinned, it was not he who was doing it, but the sin in him (Romans 7:21-25). Further, the New Man CANNOT sin (1 John 3:6, 9 . . . the "continue to" in most translations is not in the Greek. It should be rendered in the present static, as the KJV rightly does). It is not in his nature. Therefore, Paul makes the exhortations to the Corinthians:

• Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! (1 Cor. 6:15, NIV)
  
  Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. (1 Cor. 6:18, NIV)

Thus, we see that Paul is telling this Church not to go back to the sin that they were saved from, not because it would deny them of their salvation, but because as members of the body of Christ, it was a disgraceful thing! (See also Romans 6:1-14).

As to these sins not being forgiven, I refer you to the Lordship vs. Free Grace thread. I've fully laid out my position there.

Now, to deal with your three verses . . . by the way, are you going to keep doing this? Are you going to keep throwing up a verse and me showing why it doesn't support your position so you instead run to another? I mean, in all of this, you haven't shown ONE verse that directly links eschatological salvation with repentance. I could refuse to deal with the next three verses on those grounds alone, but I would rather show why they support me . . . anyway.

• Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him (John 9:31, NKJV).

There are several things we can say about this verse. First of all, I can claim it isn't even true, because it isn't an assertion from the Bible. This is a narrative account where the blind man is talking with the Pharisees. Although, I suppose you could go to Job and find the lies of Zophar and build doctrine on them . . .

But, I do take it as a true statement. We can admit it into evidence . So, show me how this has to do with salvation. Surely you do not believe that you first must be a godly person for God to hear your prayer for salvation. Why, if you do, you and Paul will have a few problems, for he said: "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Rom. 4:4, NIV). So, if God doesn't hear the prayers of the ungodly, but it is the ungodly who are justified, then it follows that God's hearing your prayers have nothing to do with salvation . . . or maybe, again R7--CONTEXT, the blind man was talking about Jesus' ability to communicate with God and do miracles. God listened to Him ON A DAILY BASIS. Well, in this case, the ungodly would be those who are sinners. They haven't repented. So, if a man--CHRISTIAN OR NOT--does not repent, then God doesn't listen to him. Good lesson for the Christian, don't you think? It's probably one the Church needs today. In fact, that might explain an awful lot about why so many of our prayers go unanswered these days . . . of course, in your view, we can't hold to that, because God hears all Christians all the time. Hmm . . .

• One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination (Prov. 28:9, NKJV)

And this has to do with salvation how? Yet again, this teaches exactly the same lesson as above, which is probably why you mentioned it. Let's keep in mind that this is a proverb. It was written to the Jewish people. They were covenant people, but they were not saved by the Law. So, that means that turning from the Law did not condemn a man. If that's true, then, again, this has no reference at all to eschatological salvation. But what does it deal with? How about the same thing as the rest of Proverbs: living a godly life, which, of course, begins with repentance. Repentance is necessary for blessings, but it is not at all necessary for salvation. I'm still waiting on a passage that says it is.

• But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust (1 Tim. 1:8-11, NKJV).

Hmm . . . I don't see the word "repent" or the word "save" or any of their derivatives anywhere in this passage. We find this in a passage relating to false teachers. They wanted to teach the Law--Judaizers, most likely. They believed that you had to keep the law to be saved, but Paul is saying that the Law is not for them. It is not for Christians (see my previous quotation as it relates to identity).

Use whatever translation you fancy for Matthew 9:13. You have still to answer the question.

Ah, I thought I did. Well, let's not be skimpy . . . let's use the NASB, NIV, and ESV:

• But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (NIV)
  
  "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (NASB)
  
  Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." (ESV)

Well, the quote comes from Hos. 6:6, in which God is angry with Israel for keeping the letter of the Law but not serving Him in faith. So, Jesus says He has not come to call the righteous. Can you hear the sarcasm? There are NONE who are righteous, but many who thought they were. These are the ones who offered sacrifice but not compassion. Jesus came for the sinners . . . those who recognized their condition. And what does Jesus want? Obviously, He wants the same thing He wanted when He inspired Hosea to pen the words then: faith. Period.

Too bad that the word "repentance" isn't by Jesus. He is NOT calling them to repentance for salvation. He is calling them to faith in Him, something "the righteous" would never do.

Now, R7, I've answered your questions. Time for you to answer some of mine.

Do you have a single Scripture that says "Repentance is necessary for eschatological salvation"? I have provided some thirty verses that say "Faith is necessary for eschatological salvation." Can you give me ONE that does the same for repentance?

If not, are you not convicted on the grounds of Gal. 1:8-9 of teaching a false gospel?

Why does John, who writes expressly for the purpose of bringing people to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ (John 20:30-31) never use the word "repent", much less tie it to salvation?

Can a person be saved if the only part of the Bible they have is the Gospel of John?

If genuine belief necessarily results in repentance, why did Paul encourage the Christians at Corinth to repent? (I was going to reference that, but hey . . . read all of both the epistles).

I suppose that will suffice for now.

God bless

But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust[/b] (1 Tim. 1:8-11, NKJV).


Perhaps if we examine this it will be more clear.

It appears this passage also means The Law is bad if one uses it unlawfully. How does one use the law unlawfully? Doesn't this clearly say the law is not for one who has been made righteous by the blood of JEsus, or is it for those made righteous by some other unknown means? Further it says the law is for the lawless, what is it for them for? IT appears clear, especially in light of other scripture, that it is to convict them of their sin.

If one has been convicted of there sin and come to Jesus and been made righteous by his blood what further use is the law? Perhaps I should gather the scripture that tells christians how they should behave. Behave as a son who loves his father, not as a subject under the LAW.

I would agree with every word you just said, JB. That's a much better explanation than I offered . . . it's what I was trying to get at when I said, "Paul is saying that the Law is not for them. It is not for Christians (see my previous quotation as it relates to identity)."

Anything you have on behavior would be beneficial, because people often accuse me (and almost all proponents of Free Grace) of offering "cheap" salvation. Well, the salvation isn't cheap . . . it's FREE, but discipleship is VERY costly. On the flip side, it is even MORE costly for the saved person (who was saved for free) to NOT go through the salvation process.

God bless

I think the problem can easily be solved when we understand that repentance and faith towards God (believing) are two sides of the same coin. Therefore, if one truly decides to trust in Christ for forgiveness of sins, he will also have changed his mind on how he views sin, self, and God. Repentance and Faith hinge and couple together. These take place in a sinners life prior to regeneration.


LowlyOne

Sorry, Lowly, I disagree.

Believing in Christ for salvation means to trust His promise that, because of who He is and what He did, He is the guarantor of eternal life if you just trust Him for it. In other words, faith is taking Christ at His word--believing He will save you because He said He would. If you add ANYTHING else, you haven't believed His word. If you believe that in order to be saved, you have to repent and believe in Him, then you haven't trusted His word to save you if you only believe in Him. If you believe that you must be baptized and believe in Him, then you haven't believed His word to save you if you only believe in Him. If you believe that you must commit your life to Him, then you haven't believed His word to save you if you only believe in Him.

Jesus said the door to Heaven was narrow, and few find it, but wide is the gate to destruction, and many will enter it. That, sadly, is exactly the case. There will be a vast multitude of people who lived great Christian lives, who professed Christ as Lord, who repented of their sins, who were baptized, and who obeyed the Lord in every way the knew how, and they will be rejected on the Last Day. Why will that be? Because they will have trusted their repentance, their perseverance, their commitment, etc. for salvation.

People charge that Free Grace is "easy believism." The problem, for them, is "it's just too easy. All you have to do is believe . . . that's not enough!" And then they typically say something like, "So, you can just believe and then go be a murderer or adulterer or liar, and you get to go to Heaven!" Now, ignoring for a moment the deeper theology behind it, look at the motivation of that attack: the argument is that such people don't deserve Heaven. It has to be harder to get than that. Can you see how that's so bad?

So, I reject that repentance and belief are two sides of the same coin. Salvation comes through BELIEF ALONE.

BTW--welcome to the boards

Jac3510 wrote:So, I reject that repentance and belief are two sides of the same coin. Salvation comes through BELIEF ALONE.

Devils believe. Are they saved?

James 2:14-20
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

If one does not repent, he does not believe. He does not believe God when He says that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10). He does not believe Jesus when He warns those who "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:21-23). He does not believe it when the Word warns us that "it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God". (Hebrews 10:31). He doesn't believe Jesus when He tells us to live by every Word that proceeds out ot the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4). One who truly believes will repent. One who knows God will keep his commandments, and one who claims to know God and does not keep His commandments is adamantly called a liar (1 John 2:3-4).

Jac, God is not the kindly grandfather image that is often protrayed in modern feel-good churches. He is a sovereign God who hates sin, and will not ignore unrepented sin. Heed John's warning to the pharisees and "bear fruits worthy of repentance" (Matthew 3:8). The gospel message is one of repentance, not just easy-believism.

Puritian, if you look and what I said specifically . . .

"Believing in Christ for salvation means to trust His promise that, because of who He is and what He did, He is the guarantor of eternal life if you just trust Him for it. "

Have demons done this?

Besides that, the question is pointless anywhere, because the promise of salvation is not extended to angels or demons. It is extended to men. Therefore, the argument is moot, anyway.

As for the passage in James, in general, it is not referring to eschatogical salvation. The word soze (save) is used five time in James. If you want me to do a verse by verse analysis of James 2:14ff, I will, but only if you explain to me how the word is used itself in the epistle. Should be quite enlightening . . .

And as for repentance in general, the case I built against R7 is the same case I build against you. I'm not going to rebuild it, especially when we have the Calvinism thread to start work on. If you want to challenge my position, read my posts to R7, and respond to the questions I posed directly to him (which he left unanswered).

God bless

Belief in Christ and the doing of his works and abiding by the Law, are imo one in the same. Inseperable!

2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once, the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

puritan lad wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:So, I reject that repentance and belief are two sides of the same coin. Salvation comes through BELIEF ALONE.

Devils believe. Are they saved?

James 2:14-20
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

If one does not repent, he does not believe. He does not believe God when He says that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10). He does not believe Jesus when He warns those who "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:21-23). He does not believe it when the Word warns us that "it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God". (Hebrews 10:31). He doesn't believe Jesus when He tells us to live by every Word that proceeds out ot the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4). One who truly believes will repent. One who knows God will keep his commandments, and one who claims to know God and does not keep His commandments is adamantly called a liar (1 John 2:3-4).

Jac, God is not the kindly grandfather image that is often protrayed in modern feel-good churches. He is a sovereign God who hates sin, and will not ignore unrepented sin. Heed John's warning to the pharisees and "bear fruits worthy of repentance" (Matthew 3:8). The gospel message is one of repentance, not just easy-believism.

More direct toward the remark with demons and devils, "Devils believe. Are they saved?". In the case of humans, we need to be saved because of our sin. The devil and demons were angles once, more then likely exposed to the truth more so then any human alive today, but they fell. I don't think the case of salvation for them is quite the same, if it is even avalible. More then likely, when angles fall it's premenent. As far as salvation, I believe it's only requirment is belief based on this

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith--and this not from yourselves it is the gift of God...not by works so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

But, I do believe if one does not repent, then the rewards in heaven will be greatly reduced. Then again, in most cases faith and repentance come hand in hand, it's just something someone would want to do. But no one is perfect...

Jac3510 wrote:I recently came across one of the greatest little booklets of all time . . . it's called Seven Reasons NOT to Ask Jesus into Your Heart, by Dennis Rosker, pastor of Duluth Bible Church. Summary as follows:

#1 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT IS NEVER FOUND IN THE BIBLE.

#2 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT IS NOT HOW ONE IS SAVED.

#3 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT REQUIRES NO UNDERSTANDING OF THE GOSPEL OF GRACE TO DO IT.

#4 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT CONFUSES THE MEANS OF SALVATION WITH THE RESULTS OF SALVATION.

#5 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT EITHER RESULTS IN NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION OR BRINGS A FALSE ASSURANCE TO PEOPLE.

#6 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because REVELATION 3:20 DOES NOT TEACH IT.

#7 Don't ask Jesus into your heart because IT DOES NOT CLARIFY THE CONDITION OF SALVATION, IT CONFUSES IT -- ESPECIALLY WITH CHILDREN.

You can review the argument behind each of these reasons at http://www.duluthbible.org/seven_reasons.htm. These are phenomenal, and I think this does a good deal in helping people understand the common misconceptions we have about our doctrines of salvation . . .

What is salvation? It is the placement of one's trust in Jesus Christ's promise to grant eternal life upon belief based on His person and work, and John 3:16 says: “. . . he who believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Thoughts?

God bless

The author has a point. I got saved by praying for faith. Then when I received the Holy Spirit, I confessed my sins.

Just to pick on your verbage, Carico . . .

We know you were saved through your faith, so prior to having faith, you were not saved. Faith, as we know, is belief. SO:

Did you pray because you believed, or did you believe because you prayed?

hey Jac, hope all is well. Is K still behaving?
saw the snappy title to this thread and thought I would give it a look

Jac3510 wrote:Believing in Christ for salvation means to trust His promise that, because of who He is and what He did, He is the guarantor of eternal life if you just trust Him for it.

please clarify a few things for me....
a) how can one believe in Christ for his salvation w/o recognizing a need for one's salvation?
b) how can recognize one's need for salvation w/o recognizing one's sin?
c) how can one recognize one's sin and rely on Christ for one's salvation w/o recognizing that Christ's death paid the penalty for one's sin?
d) how can one recognize that Christ's death paid the penalty for one's sin and rely on Christ for one's salvation w/o loving Christ?
e) how can one recognize that Christ's death paid the penalty for one's sin and love Christ w/o repenting of that sin?

You seem to suggest that it is possible to separate saving faith from repentance....how would such faith look? Do you actually think one could say, "I will take Christ at His word and rely on Him for my salvation, thank-you very much, but I kinda like adultery so much that I shall value it more than obedience to Christ (after all He is so very loving and understanding) and therefore I shall continue to be an adulterer w/o any remorse till I get to the pearly gates"?

In other words, faith is taking Christ at His word--believing He will save you because He said He would. If you add ANYTHING else, you haven't believed His word. If you believe that in order to be saved, you have to repent and believe in Him, then you haven't trusted His word to save you if you only believe in Him. If you believe that you must be baptized and believe in Him, then you haven't believed His word to save you if you only believe in Him. If you believe that you must commit your life to Him, then you haven't believed His word to save you if you only believe in Him.

so, obedience is not required? Love is not required? ...again, how would that look? Now it seems that you are saying that one can proudly declare "I will take Christ at His word and rely on Him for my salvation, thank-you very much, but I shall despise Him and His ways and revolt at His commands"....such is impossible, one can't both rely on Christ b/c of who He is and what He did and at the same time reject His ways ....and if love and obedience necessarily flow from saving faith, then they are the other side of the same coin.

There will be a vast multitude of people who lived great Christian lives, who professed Christ as Lord, who repented of their sins, who were baptized, and who obeyed the Lord in every way the knew how, and they will be rejected on the Last Day.

now you are reading much into the passage.
I will agree that a formula prayer doesn't save. Salvation is a matter of the heart... a circumcised heart to be exact. If we are to speculate on who Christ will reject, then I would say it would be the fellow who thinks he was able to truly call Jesus Lord w/o repenting of his sins

Why will that be? Because they will have trusted their repentance, their perseverance, their commitment, etc. for salvation.

this is a parody of most who insist on repentance....we don't trust our repentance, but see repentance as part and parcel of a saving faith, an element of it and we trust Christ.

All you have to do is believe . . . that's not enough!" And then they typically say something like, "So, you can just believe and then go be a murderer or adulterer or liar, and you get to go to Heaven!" Now, ignoring for a moment the deeper theology behind it, look at the motivation of that attack: the argument is that such people don't deserve Heaven.

no that's not it at all. Believing and refusing to repent are seen as two mutually exclusive conditions. Believing and outright disobedience are seen as two mutually exclusive conditions. A person may possess a faith that can move mountains, but if that person lacks love he is nothing.

I guess the question should be what does it mean to REPENT. In my understanding it means to "change ones mind". I think this is a close to literal translation from the greek.

If this is the case then repenting is always the result of salvation. But repenting does not necessarily change ones life.

Sometimes Christians continue to do whats wrong even when they agree that its wrong.


Would you all agree with this?

YLTYLT wrote:I guess the question should be what does it mean to REPENT. In my understanding it means to "change ones mind". I think this is a close to literal translation from the greek.

If this is the case then repenting is always the result of salvation. But repenting does not necessarily change ones life.

Sometimes Christians continue to do whats wrong even when they agree that its wrong.


Would you all agree with this?

I heard a preacher delcare that repentence means to slowly turn a 180 degree turn. He meant that repentence involves turning awya from our sin nature and live according to how God's Spirit directs.