Evidence for God from Science

R7-12 wrote:Hi Byblos,

One might refer to the teaching I hold concerning the Godhead as Subordinationist Unitarian. It is the same teaching the apostles held concerning God and His son the Christ whom He sent (John 17:3).

Unfortunately the apostles are not around any more so they can be polled on the subject, or are they? You see I believe they are and they tend to disagree with your assessment of certain aspects of their teaching.

R7-12 wrote:I believe in every word that proceeds from the mouth of our heavenly Father including His law and commandments (Matt. 4:4).

I don't have a problem with that.

R7-12 wrote:This response would likely lead you to ask if I keep the various civil laws etc. given to Israel. I would respond that I try to live according to the spirit or intent of these laws until all is restored by Christ at his coming. Then the entirety of the law of God will be known and kept, including the Sabbaths, New Moons and Feast of Tabernacles (Isaiah 2:3, Mic. 4:2, Isaiah 66:23, Zech. 16:14-19).

It did not but thank you for the background. That's what I asked for.

R7-12 wrote:You might ask if I keep the law of sacrifice thinking that I would take that to mean the sacrificial ordinances within the temple system. I keep the law of sacrifice as Christ became the goal or purpose of it having paid the righteous requirement of the law for me with his life, so that I wouldn't have to pay it with my life. He became the Lamb of God fulfilling what the law required for sin — a perfect sacrifice for our breaking the law of God (1 John 3:4).

I will not disagree with this either but the question is: is that really essential for salvation? (and remember, this is coming from a Catholic).

R7-12 wrote:We are commanded to “sin no more”, thus I submit my ways to Him and He establishes my understanding of His ways (Prov. 16:3).

Again, I have no issue with this.

R7-12 wrote:To be a true Christian we must be one of Christ's (Rom. 8:9). To be one of Christ's we must have the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). To receive the Spirit, we must obey God including His commandments (Acts 5:32, 1 John 3:24). We obey God by keeping His every word and His commands (Matt. 19:17, John 14:15; 15:9-10, 1 John 2:3-5, 22; 5:2-3, Rev. 12:17; 14:12, 22:14).

This I might disagree with. God grants us his grace freely. We do not earn it by works. We are totally free to accept it or reject it. You see, this business of salvation by grace alone or by grace and works to me is a non-starter. By virtue of professing Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior I have done works. Works are not required for salvation but are the proof of God's grace freely bestowed upon us. What we do with it is our own.

R7-12 wrote:Jesus Christ learned to obey his Father through everything he suffered throughout his life including resisting temptation every day of his life (Heb. 5:8; 4:15).

So you ascribe to the belief that Jesus had a sinful nature but resisted sin through the power God granted him? Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ? Do you profess Jesus Christ to be your Lord and your God?

R7-12 wrote:I know I have made many seroius errors in my life and still make mistakes daily, but I wish only to believe and do and think and walk as Christ walked.

R7-12

Don't we all.

R7, I'll keep this short. I'm a Greek student, and I can tell you that there are much better references than Strong's. It's good for what it was designed to do, but there are far better resources available to us. But, the fun part is, in your own definition, we see it can mean "with"

Check out the TNDT, the NIDNT, Louw and Nida, etc. In fact, William Mounce's basic Greek textbook (Basic's of Biblical Greek), which is the most widely used Greek textbook on the market today, gives "with" as one of the stock definitions of pros. Again, just look through the references provided . . . it seems to me that your basic assertion is simply incorrect.

A little more specific: you said that the word denotes a closer conotation than merely "with." I disagree with that statement for several reasons. The short answer is that languages are not one to one codes. Words have ranges of meanings, and almost no words from different languages have exactly the same range. So, for instance, while the Greek sarx may mean "flesh", in also means "sinful nature" and "body" among other things. But, it does not mean all of these things at once! In the same way, the English word "flesh" means several things. On one hand, it refers to the muscle, skin, and tissue on a body. On the other hand, it refers to the action of filling an argument ("flesh out the argument). It does not mean both of these at once. Now, while sarx can be translated sometimes by "flesh", it sometimes cannot, and the reverse is also true.

I say all that because the word pros has a range of meanings, and one of those meanings is "with," as the references provided clearly indicate. Seriously, check out some higher quality Greek dictionaries that give full descriptions, rather than just short definitions, of what the words mean.

For the record, I haven't proven it SHOULD be rendered "with." I am just saying that you are incorrect in your assertion that it CANNOT be rendered "with."

God bless

Jac,

You have misrepresented what I said.

I am just saying that you are incorrect in your assertion that it CANNOT be rendered "with."

I never claimed pros cannot be rendered "with".

My claim is that John 1:1 is more accurately understood when pros is rendered to or towards, which you also must admit is how the word pros can be rendered.

R7-12

I hardly think I misrepresented your position, although I may have been mistaken. I was working off your statement:

If one does a search of SGD 4314 pros, it will be clear it means to or toward and not with.

Am I to suppose that "it" in this sentence refers to pros as written in John 1:1, and not to pros in general? I'm sure you can see how this statement looks as if you are saying, "Pros (SGD 4314) means to or toward and not with."

Anyway, I fail to see how it can mean "to" or "toward" . . . but that's just me.

Thank you so much, guys. I have learned alot from this discussion. Maybe more than from any other on this forum. Thanks.

One other question: when was the NWT first compiled? The others?

Mystical,

I believe the NWT was first published in 1961. A number of revisions have apparently been done since then.

R7-12

Byblos,

I wrote,

To be a true Christian we must be one of Christ's (Rom. 8:9). To be one of Christ's we must have the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). To receive the Spirit, we must obey God including His commandments (Acts 5:32, 1 John 3:24). We obey God by keeping His every word and His commands (Matt. 19:17, John 14:15; 15:9-10, 1 John 2:3-5, 22; 5:2-3, Rev. 12:17; 14:12, 22:14).

Your response,

This I might disagree with. God grants us his grace freely. We do not earn it by works. We are totally free to accept it or reject it. You see, this business of salvation by grace alone or by grace and works to me is a non-starter. By virtue of professing Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior I have done works. Works are not required for salvation but are the proof of God's grace freely bestowed upon us. What we do with it is our own.

I disagree with your position on what constitutes works and with your assertion that works are not essential, however, please note I'm not advocating salvation by works, that is, I don't believe salvation can be earned by doing something. The fact that I quote the Bible saying we are commanded to obey God's commandments doesn't mean I am saying salvation is by or through works anymore than the Bible the says it.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His (Rom. 8:9, NKJV).

Premise 1: We are not Christ's if we do not have the Spirit and therefore not a true Christian.

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32, NKJV).

Premise 2: God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us (1 John 3:24, NKJV).

Premise 3: We know that God and Christ abide in us through the Spirit because we keep His commandments.

So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17, NKJV).

Premise 4: Keeping the commandments of God is a prerequisite to receiving eternal life — but is not a means by which everlasting life is earned. These are separate concepts, the second of which is a false teaching.

If you love Me, keep My commandments (John 14:15, NKJV).

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love (John 15:9-10, NKJV).

Premise 5: If we love Christ we will keep his commandments. His commandments are those which he was given by his God and Father and our God and Father for did nothing of his own will nor spoke his own words but the Father's only (1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 11:31, Eph. 1:3, John 14:10, 24; 12:49-50).

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him (1 John 2:3-5, NKJV).

Premise 6: Only those who keep God's commandments know that they know Him. Those who claim “to know Him” but don't keep His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:2-3, NKJV).

Premise 7: We know that we love the children of God when we love God and keep His commandments for this is the love of God — that we keep His commandments.

Premise 8: God's commandments are NOT burdensome.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev. 12:17, NKJV).

Premise 9: The “woman” is Israel (Rev. 12:1-6). Her offspring are the elect or chosen ones. They are identified as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony or faith of Jesus Christ. It is these whom the adversary makes war with, not those who are lawless.

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:12, NKJV).

Premise 10: The saints of God are identified by their patient endurance in keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ to the very end.

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city (Rev. 22:14, NKJV).

Premise 11: Those who do God's commandments are blessed by receiving the authority to the tree of life and to enter the city of God through the gates.

Conclusion: Based on the preceding 11 premises, obedience to the commandments of God is essential to receiving the free gift of everlasting life which an identifying mark of those called the saints of God - those who truly love God. Those who make the claim to know God but don't keep His commands are liars and in them is no truth or light.

God simply requires obedience from those whom He calls and chooses. Those who have no desire to obey God's commands often create the argument that if anyone tries to do what God commands; they are trying to earn salvation. This is utterly false. Nowhere in Scripture is this concept found except where it is written that the Pharisees tried to gain the righteousness of the law through “the works of the law”, which is a reference to their attempt at gaining righteousness through the blood of many animal sacrifices and also through various purification rituals, instead of attaining the righteousness of the law through faith (in Christ's blood, cf. Rom. 9:30-33).

The law of God was never given for anyone to try to earn salvation by doing what God told them to — that is a ridiculous assertion on the face of it.

I wrote,

Jesus Christ learned to obey his Father through everything he suffered throughout his life including resisting temptation every day of his life (Heb. 5:8; 4:15).

You said,

So you ascribe to the belief that Jesus had a sinful nature but resisted sin through the power God granted him? Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ? Do you profess Jesus Christ to be your Lord and your God?

Your questions were prompted by my paraphrase of Scripture. Here are your answers,

though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing (Heb. 5:8-11, NKJV).

For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15, NKJV).

I accept what the Bible says and I conform to it and submit to God. I do not try to conform the Bible to my collection of preconceived beliefs about God — no matter how sacred I take them to be. It's a concept worth thinking about.

R7-12

R7-12 wrote:Byblos,

I wrote,

To be a true Christian we must be one of Christ's (Rom. 8:9). To be one of Christ's we must have the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). To receive the Spirit, we must obey God including His commandments (Acts 5:32, 1 John 3:24). We obey God by keeping His every word and His commands (Matt. 19:17, John 14:15; 15:9-10, 1 John 2:3-5, 22; 5:2-3, Rev. 12:17; 14:12, 22:14).

Your response,

This I might disagree with. God grants us his grace freely. We do not earn it by works. We are totally free to accept it or reject it. You see, this business of salvation by grace alone or by grace and works to me is a non-starter. By virtue of professing Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Savior I have done works. Works are not required for salvation but are the proof of God's grace freely bestowed upon us. What we do with it is our own.

I disagree with your position on what constitutes works and with your assertion that works are not essential, however, please note I'm not advocating salvation by works, that is, I don't believe salvation can be earned by doing something. The fact that I quote the Bible saying we are commanded to obey God's commandments doesn't mean I am saying salvation is by or through works anymore than the Bible the says it.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His (Rom. 8:9, NKJV).

Premise 1: We are not Christ's if we do not have the Spirit and therefore not a true Christian.

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32, NKJV).

Premise 2: God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us (1 John 3:24, NKJV).

Premise 3: We know that God and Christ abide in us through the Spirit because we keep His commandments.

So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17, NKJV).

Premise 4: Keeping the commandments of God is a prerequisite to receiving eternal life — but is not a means by which everlasting life is earned. These are separate concepts, the second of which is a false teaching.

If you love Me, keep My commandments (John 14:15, NKJV).

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love (John 15:9-10, NKJV).

Premise 5: If we love Christ we will keep his commandments. His commandments are those which he was given by his God and Father and our God and Father for did nothing of his own will nor spoke his own words but the Father's only (1 Cor. 1:3; 2 Cor. 11:31, Eph. 1:3, John 14:10, 24; 12:49-50).

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him (1 John 2:3-5, NKJV).

Premise 6: Only those who keep God's commandments know that they know Him. Those who claim “to know Him” but don't keep His commandments are liars and the truth is not in them.

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:2-3, NKJV).

Premise 7: We know that we love the children of God when we love God and keep His commandments for this is the love of God — that we keep His commandments.

Premise 8: God's commandments are NOT burdensome.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev. 12:17, NKJV).

Premise 9: The “woman” is Israel (Rev. 12:1-6). Her offspring are the elect or chosen ones. They are identified as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony or faith of Jesus Christ. It is these whom the adversary makes war with, not those who are lawless.

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:12, NKJV).

Premise 10: The saints of God are identified by their patient endurance in keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ to the very end.

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city (Rev. 22:14, NKJV).

Premise 11: Those who do God's commandments are blessed by receiving the authority to the tree of life and to enter the city of God through the gates.

Conclusion: Based on the preceding 11 premises, obedience to the commandments of God is essential to receiving the free gift of everlasting life which an identifying mark of those called the saints of God - those who truly love God. Those who make the claim to know God but don't keep His commands are liars and in them is no truth or light.

God simply requires obedience from those whom He calls and chooses. Those who have no desire to obey God's commands often create the argument that if anyone tries to do what God commands; they are trying to earn salvation. This is utterly false. Nowhere in Scripture is this concept found except where it is written that the Pharisees tried to gain the righteousness of the law through “the works of the law”, which is a reference to their attempt at gaining righteousness through the blood of many animal sacrifices and also through various purification rituals, instead of attaining the righteousness of the law through faith (in Christ's blood, cf. Rom. 9:30-33).

The law of God was never given for anyone to try to earn salvation by doing what God told them to — that is a ridiculous assertion on the face of it.

I wrote,

Jesus Christ learned to obey his Father through everything he suffered throughout his life including resisting temptation every day of his life (Heb. 5:8; 4:15).

You said,

So you ascribe to the belief that Jesus had a sinful nature but resisted sin through the power God granted him? Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ? Do you profess Jesus Christ to be your Lord and your God?

Your questions were prompted by my paraphrase of Scripture. Here are your answers,

though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing (Heb. 5:8-11, NKJV).

For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15, NKJV).

I accept what the Bible says and I conform to it and submit to God. I do not try to conform the Bible to my collection of preconceived beliefs about God — no matter how sacred I take them to be. It's a concept worth thinking about.

R7-12

I note you did not answer my questions but let's move on. I'm curious to know your position on judgement. Who is going to be judged and why.