Evidence for God from Science

Ok this is a confusing topic because I don't get whats being argued here exactly but i'll crack at it.

Jesus: "And many an Israelite-those for whom the Kingdom was prepared-shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment."

So there you go I guess, being an Israelite doesn't give you any benefit over the gentiles except obviously knowing the truth long before.

So far in my research I'm inclined towards a theory which is this - present spiritual Kingdom consumated in a future literal millenial Kingdom. The subjects are all those saved by grace through faith and are all equal. The significance of the land of Palestine lies in the fact that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem over all the nations, rather than just a single ethnic group of people.

As far as the ethnicity of the nation of Israel from the times of Moses is concerned, my understanding is this - After the Assyrian exile, the ten northern tribes were scattered and a lot of them intermarried as well. So, only God knows of their whereabouts now. The tribes of Benjamin and Judah which returned back from the Babylonian exile, were called the Jews. They too were scattered in the first century. The present occupants of Israel claim to have preserved their identity since.

I just don't think it matters where you are from at all..
For example Noah clearly wasn't a Jew or an Israelite or whatnot and yet God chose him because Noah did all he could to abide in God. God doesn't have favorites, he can turn a stone into a Jew!

Hi vvart,

I would agree with you that it does not matter where you are from, although that wasn't always the case, as God chose the Israelites initially as His people (at least the old covenant was made with them).

The discussion about Israel often comes down to one's eschatological (i.e., end times) viewpoint. Some still place a large emphasis on Israel, the people, still having a special priviledged position above that of Gentiles (i.e., non-Israeli/Jewish). Additionally there are those who believe Christ will literally descend upon Jerusalem to setup His kingdom and reign for 1000 years on Earth.

What has been discussed between August and I is whether Israel always refers to a literal Israel in Scripture. I've been providing Scripture that shows it doesn't, but that Israel also possesses the meaning of those saved by Christ. Hope that helps.

Kurieuo.

There was always more people with Israel than just Israelites. When they came out of Egypt there was a mixed multitude of people.

I agree that GOD does not play favorites. However, He can NEVER go back on what He said.

VVART

God doesn't have favorites, he can turn a stone into a Jew!

Yes He can! However, I don't think we should look for Him to do what we think he can do but rather what HE SAID HE WOULD DO.

BW

I believe the covenant has never been only for the Jews, but rather the Jews "hoarded" it. It was for all people, but given FIRST to the "Jews".

I agree and the scriptures will confirm this. When GOD sent Moses to Pharoah, GOD called Israel His first born. First implies that there are more to come. In Revelation(21:24) it refers to the "nations that are saved" - these are Israel and the rest of the Nations that were adopted by GOD.

AUGUST

Matthew 10:6 (KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus only came to Israel. The Israelites that believed were sent to the other nations. Israel had to be taught before they could teach others. Later, the decree changed.

matt 28
19) Go ye therefore, and , baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Once there was some knowledge in Israel then Israel could teach the others.

Matthew 10:23 (KJV)
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I'll have to think look into this one.

Matthew 15:24 (KJV)
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, the teachers MUST be taught first.

Do you understand this as Jesus saying that the physical Israel should get first preference due to the great responsibility God put on them?

YES!

There is more to this but I have to go to work .

dear people, if we were to take off all of our filters of a preconceived idea of what is Isreal(i.e. dispensational, covenantal, etc.) and simply read the New Testament account of the work of Jesus Christ to reconcile man to relationship with God I think it is much simpler. It appears that Israel(the man) was given a very special place because of no outward gift except that God was proving His sovereignty by making much of nothing(a Great Nation where none existed). Paul very clearly indicates that Jesus Christ was the seed of Abraham that was the recipient and the fulfillment of all the promises to Israel. Since Christ is the seed if we (Gentile or Jew) are in Christ(saved) there is no distinction between us since we are all part of 1 body, not 2 or more bodies as some seem to think. This point is made repeatedly all over the New Testament and to try to split the body of Christ is to resurrect a broken wall that God (Christ) tore down and I am not real sure that I would want to cross God to that extent. The nation of Isreal was the type (foreshadow) of the body of Christ. The church is the fulfillment of the body of Christ without the walls. Too many things point to this to ignore e.g. references to 1 body, we are priests and a people of His own, the New Jerusalem is being built in Heaven from the stones of ALL believers. One last thing to consider if Christ is to have an earthly people AND a seperate heavenly people, never the twain shall meet- which one will Christ spend His eternity with since Christ is a physical being in a body and it will be really difficult for Him to be both at the same time which is the very reason that we have the Holy Spirit for the possession of His Spirit by ALL believers, not just the Gentile believers or the Jewish believers. God love you all and thank Him for oour blessings in Christ

what if the jews are not the chosen people.
What is the chosen people are humanity.
Remember we all came from the same place.
Remember god wants none of his children lost. He wants them all to come to him in their own time.
What if all he wants from all his children is to learn to love god and humanity with all that they are. Jesus made special mention that this was the two most important commandments.

I have no way of expressing what I truly mean, I am unable to find words for it at this time.

Deborah, I think you hit the nail square on the head and drove it on home. Israel was the instrument through which God revealed Himself to the entire world. And at any time during the Old Covenant a Non-Blood carrying Gentile could become a member of His people and if they followed the requirements of the Covenant(believe that God IS their only way to salvation) they were joint heirs with the Jews. Christ is the full realization of God's revelation of Himself and it could not have been more clearly stated than in Ephesians, Galatians, and Hebrews that Christ was tearing down the walls of separation that only man truly put up, ever. God bless all for thinking and meditating on the One who is eternal.

Dear RGeeB,

Hello! In this thread you raise the important theme of the Church being the same as Israel in terms of Christian thinking and theology.

I think that you unknowlingly put your poll question in the form of a kind of "Catch 22" when you write:

Israel has lost its privileged position with God?
You may select 1 option
Yes
No

If the responder chooses "Yes" and believes that the Church = Spiritual "Israel", then the responder conveys that the Spiritual Israel (the Church) lacks a privileged position with God. And yet, Christianity teaches that the Church is Christ's body, and of course has a special, privileged relationship with him.

And on the other hand, if the responder chooses "No," then the answer may be interpreted as meaning that "No," the Old Testament Israel of a national religious community with rituals like circumcision- and often interpreted as consisting primarily of nonChristian descendants of the Old Testament community- still has a privileged position with God that does not extend to most Christians.

So it isn't clear what answer a person would choose if he/she believes that Israel is the same as the Christian Church, and that this Israel has a privileged position with God.

Next, you turned our attention to two verses for discussion:

RGeeB wrote:Galatians 3:29 and Galatians 6:16

I find Galatians 3:28-29(KJV) to be one of the clearest passages showing St Paul believed Christians to be part of the Spiritual Israel:

• 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
  29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The idea here is that Christians are together in Jesus, and that in this there are no separate categories of Greek or Jew. Plus, belonging to Christ in this way- ie by being Christians- we are Abraham's descendants, which was an expression that was used to refer to the Israelites and Jews (eg. "sons of Abraham").
Further, it seems to me that if we are Abraham's descendants through Christ, then we would also be the descendants of Jacob(AKA Israel), who was between Abraham and Christ in paternal lineague.

Still, St Paul doesn't explicitly say that Christians are also descendants of Jacob, and one of the differences could be that St Paul explained that Abraham had a relationship with God before Abraham was circumcized. So perhaps theoretically he could be referring to descendants of Abraham before his circumcision, but this would sound strange.

Now then, what does Galatians 6:15-16 mean?

• 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
  16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Greek word for rule here is "canon", which is also used in English to mean doctrine.
Apparently, St Paul is referring to the idea of Christians walking according to the docrtine that circumcision and uncircumcision don't do anything within Christianity.
And as far as people follow this docrtine, mercy be upon the "Israel of God."
That is, may there be mercy for Israel as much as people don't think circumcision or uncircumcision cause anything.

Now what does the term "Israel of God" mean? The added words "of God" suggest that this is contrasting with connotations from simply "Israel", which could suggest Israel of the world, an earthly national entity. The phrase "of God" contrasts to "Israel after the flesh" (1 Corinthians 10:18)

The commentaries on Bible.cc link this verse with the following words from St Paul:
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
Romans 4:12 And [Abraham] the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

And Romans 2 shows St Paul's thinking:

• 26. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
  27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
  28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
  29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You proposed:

In addition, here's another thought. There is no difference in the inheritence of spiritual blessings currently and upon the return of Christ to reign from Jerusalem, there will be no difference in Earthly blessings. In the fulness of time, the physical gentiles and the Jews will be amalgamated into one, to inherit the physical blessings. (If you believe in a future reign of Christ on Earth)

Isn't this just the obvious result of believing that the Church= the Spiritual Israel of the Bible, and of believing St Paul's words that physicial circumcision doesn't avail (result in) anything different and ST Paul's words that there are no separate identities of Jews and Greeks in Christian thinking?

You also proposed:

So far in my research I'm inclined towards a theory which is this - present spiritual Kingdom consumated in a future literal millenial Kingdom. The subjects are all those saved by grace through faith and are all equal. The significance of the land of Palestine lies in the fact that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem over all the nations, rather than just a single ethnic group of people.

It seems you could define the Church as a Spiritual Israel in a situation like you described where Jesus ruled it from Jerusalem in a literal physical kingdom. Still, if Israel has a spiritual form in prophecy of the Church, then perhaps the kingdom is also spiritual? After all, Jesus told Pontius Pilate, that his kingdom wasn't of this world.
Plus, perhaps Jerusalem doesn't necessarily mean a "fleshly", ie physical city, but a community of believers, as it is the capitol of Israel, which is interpreted in a spiritual sense?

Your words basically agree with my own understanding of the anthropological group of Israelites as well as the political entity called israel, when you write:

As far as the ethnicity of the nation of Israel from the times of Moses is concerned, my understanding is this - After the Assyrian exile, the ten northern tribes were scattered and a lot of them intermarried as well. So, only God knows of their whereabouts now. The tribes of Benjamin and Judah which returned back from the Babylonian exile, were called the Jews. They too were scattered in the first century. The present occupants of Israel claim to have preserved their identity since.

Except that the Old Testament adds that some of the Northern Tribes' people took refuge living with the Kingdom of Judah after the northern tribes were dispersed as you mentioned. I vaguely remember reading about a woman in Christ's early life, perhaps when he was presented in the Temple as an infant, who was mentioned as descended from one of the dispersed tribes.
Also, the dispersal of the Jews in the first century wasn't absolute. There were already alot of Jews living abroad when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and although they were scattered/dispersed out of jerusalem in about 135 AD, "Mizrahi" Jews kept a certain presence in the Holy Land, through the Muslim conquests and right up to the present day.
Also, you could add that the ancient Israelites included pagans like Canaanites who joined Israel, and that the modern Israelis also include the descendants of converts from Europe and other places.

Furthermore, there are many descendants of the ancient Israelites and Jews who are Christians and Muslims, making them ethnic Israelites and Jews, but who don't necessarily identify themselves primarily as Israelites. The 10 Tribes didn't simply disappear- as you pointed out they intermarried, and their descendants include many Middle Easterners.
Also, many Jews converted to Christianity and Islam after the rise of those faiths. DNA tests of the Palestinian Christians and Muslims suggest that many, if not most, of them are descended from the ancient Jews living on that land. Plus, many Jews who moved to Europe and other countries converted to Christianity there over the centuries.

Rakovsky,
RGeeb hasn't posted on this site since March 2005.

RickD wrote:Rakovsky,
RGeeb hasn't posted on this site since March 2005.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Israel = people who wrestled with God. I.E Christians

Wrong!!

The Bible clearly shows us who is Israel. To say that Israel as revealed in the OT and Christians today are the same is a total neglect to rightly divide the Word of Truth, and sets one on a course of spiritual impotency.

Widge wrote:Israel = people who wrestled with God. I.E Christians

There is no logic to this at all...

Gman wrote:

Widge wrote:Israel = people who wrestled with God. I.E Christians

There is no logic to this at all...

New International Version (©1984) Gewnesis 32:28


Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

Romans 9:6-8
English Standard Version (ESV)

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring

I am correct.