Evidence for God from Science

We won't have to work Mastermind - for we are already saved and made children of God. Also God's power will be made known in spectacular fashion - the Mt. of Olives will split in two, for starters.

The transformation occurs after we are going into the clouds(assuming you gave the right verse sequence, which I think you did).

The transformation occurs when we come out of the ground(for the dead) OR when we are changed(for the living).

1 Corinth 15
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trumpet, we are made immortal then we meet Jesus in the clouds.

I;m curious about the final battle though. Do Jesus and the saints fight the heathen population that remains on Earth after we rise to the heavens?

After we meet the LORD in the air, we come directly back to Earth to take the planet.

Psalms 149
4)For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
5) Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6) Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
7) To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9) To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Rev 17
13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

These are the angels(Revelation 19:13-15) and the ones that met Him in the cloud.

Elishyah, what role do you think the gathered saints will play in the millenial Kingdom? Will they be in their glorified bodies?
ps. Like judges/governers perhaps?

Elishyah, what role do you think the gathered saints will play in the millenial Kingdom? Will they be in their glorified bodies?
ps. Like judges/governers perhaps?

Well, just to be clear, there are 2 sets that are gathered at the second coming of Jesus.

1. The Saints that meet Jesus in the air after the tribulation - these are the ones that overcame (Israelite or not) that are to reign with Christ 1000 yrs and ever be with the LORD. These are immortal and in their glorified bodies. These have entered into His Rest. These will be Kings and Priests. These are to be with Jesus when He takes the Earth.

At least one of these saints already has a defined job: David - King of Israel
But there are other thrones for the immortals.

Psa 122
3 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together:
4 Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD.

The tribes of the Lord are the mortal physical Israelites.

5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.

These are the judges and rulers.

2. Physical Israel - these are to be gathered to the wilderness just like when they came from Egypt. These are mortals. These are the ones refered to when it says "a child shall die at 100 yrs old". The immortals don't die at all. Once Jesus weeds out the rebels He will take the people into the city to begin His Rest (1000 yrs). None of these can live the full 1000 yrs. Remember none of these can live a full day which is 1000yrs.

Rev 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Notice: 1260 days = 3 1/2 yrs which is the exact length of the tribulation.

Isaiah 43
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

Ezekiel 20
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I can go further if you like.

Elishyah,

I had always envisioned the 'mortals' in the 1000 years to be those who turned to God after the rapture, during tribulation. But with your interpretation (which I'd like to understand further as I never have fully made up my mind) this concept will not work because there's no time between the rapture and the subsequent defeat of Satan.

Let me summarize quickly: Both the dead in Christ and the saved who live at the end of the tribulation are called up to Jesus upon His return - and the saved also get their glofied bodies; so the saved and the dead in Christ both have immortal bodies for the 1000 years.

So the 2nd group of people, those who are mortal... What is the distinction between a rebel and non-rebel here? Who is God destroying and who is God preserving? Are you saying that God will only preserve the blood descendants of Isreal? Is there no chance for an unsaved gentile to repent once he sees the rapture? I always thought there would be, except that it would likely cost their lives.

Another question. Is that reign by Christ a physical reign? Can the mortal beings see Christ and the glorfied beings, or is it more like Satan has reign currently over Earth - unseen but certainly real? I've always wondered about this, because the concept of immortal beings being seen and living alongside mortal people is strange indeed! Will everyone still drive cars? I suppose - gotta move that food around somehow. Will even the glorified eat, play computer games, etc? The 1000-year reign is interersting to think about, when coupled with our modern world. And finally, at the end of the 1000 years, Satan again turns 1/3 of the people against God. How could that be - they have seen JESUS reigning, and have immortal friends, etc. Something about that just seems so unlikely.

Would appreciate your insight...

So the 2nd group of people, those who are mortal... What is the distinction between a rebel and non-rebel here?

The same as it was when Israel came out of Egypt the first time. They made a covenant with GOD in the wilderness. Then, they disobeyed, breaking the covenant and (the adults 20+) were destroyed for there disobedience. The exact same thing will happen with Israel this time in the wilderness. The commandments = the covenant.

Exodus 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Who is God destroying and who is God preserving?

He is destroying the physical Israelites(and the strangers that sojourn with them) that rebel against the commandments of GOD. Preserving the rest.

Are you saying that God will only preserve the blood descendants of Isreal?

No. I am saying that physical Israel and anyone joined to them will be protected from the Tribulation and get into the wilderness.

Is there no chance for an unsaved gentile to repent once he sees the rapture? I always thought there would be, except that it would likely cost their lives.

YES. There is always hope as long as you are alive. However, this repentance won't get you to be immortal. The thing to watch for is not any rapture but the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place (in the temple yet to be built). This is the clue to escape. Anyone that has not escaped at that time will be persecuted beast and false prophet. There will be some at that time that keep the commandments of GOD and believe a little bit but not enough to escape - these will be persecuted.

Rev 12
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The world powers will try to stop Israel from getting to the wilderness but they won't be able.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

As you can see, this remnant believes in Jesus and keeps the commandments - this is who Satan is after - he has everyone else.

Is that reign by Christ a physical reign? Can the mortal beings see Christ and the glorfied beings, or is it more like Satan has reign currently over Earth - unseen but certainly real?

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Not only will mortals see Him but they will be compelled to do so every year. Also, listen to just how physical this is:

Ezekiel 41
7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and

their post by my posts

, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

There will only be a wall between Him and the people. This is "up close and personal".

I've always wondered about this, because the concept of immortal beings being seen and living alongside mortal people is strange indeed! Will everyone still drive cars? I suppose - gotta move that food around somehow. Will even the glorified eat, play computer games, etc?

Mortals will use cars or what ever else is available to them.

The 1000-year reign is interersting to think about, when coupled with our modern world. And finally, at the end of the 1000 years, Satan again turns 1/3 of the people against God. How could that be - they have seen JESUS reigning, and have immortal friends, etc. Something about that just seems so unlikely.

I don't think its exactly a third but its alot. And as far as how people could be fooled by Satan after watching Jesus reign - I always have to go back to one of the first stupid things - the CALF.

Lets analyze this a bit. These people just watched 10 plagues on Egypt - 7 of which were not upon Israel. They watched the first born in Egypt die. They watched Moses hold up his staff and the sea open for them to cross over, not muddy but DRY land.
After all this they made a CALF, after the fact, and agreed that this Calf is what brought them out of Egypt. Everytime I read this it seems incredible. So, never doubt man's self-destructive tendencies.

Thanks so much for your insight... You've certainly provided a lot to think about.

Elishyah wrote:I don't think its exactly a third but its alot. And as far as how people could be fooled by Satan after watching Jesus reign - I always have to go back to one of the first stupid things - the CALF.

Lets analyze this a bit. These people just watched 10 plagues on Egypt - 7 of which were not upon Israel. They watched the first born in Egypt die. They watched Moses hold up his staff and the sea open for them to cross over, not muddy but DRY land.
After all this they made a CALF, after the fact, and agreed that this Calf is what brought them out of Egypt. Everytime I read this it seems incredible. So, never doubt man's self-destructive tendencies.

Yeah I agree here - there will always be those that choose destruction. I've always pointed to Adam and Eve as one example, being that they walked with God but still disobeyed Him. And also the fall of the angels, who dwelt with God is all His glory.

P.S. Not sure where I originally got the 3rd from; I guess I must have borrowed it from the fall of the angels. But you're right, 1/3 is not specified. Thx for pointing that out.

Good day Elishyah - till next time.

Elishyah wrote:These have entered into His Rest.

Though I broadly agree with your line of thinking, I would say that the meaning of the above in the Bible is ceasing from one's works in order to merit salvation. When we come to Jesus, we enter into God's unfinished 7th creation day.
Hebrews 4:1-11

RGeeB,

Though I broadly agree with your line of thinking, I would say that the meaning of the above in the Bible is ceasing from one's works in order to merit salvation.

First, I don't understand how you can "cease your work" and still enter into rest when Verse 11 says we MUST labor.

Heb 4
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us LABOUR therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is the thing we labor for. The rest is analagous to the 7th day of the week - the Sabbath. 1000 yrs with GOD is a 1 day therefore the 7th day is the 7th 1000 yr period from creation of man.

The first 6 days are for work/labor.

Exodus 20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

So, what I am saying is that the REST is not a state of mind but an actual point in time - The 1000 yrs with Satan bound - who can rest with him loose? This rest is after the coming of Jesus and the resurrection.

Elishyah

Well, my understanding of the old law of Sabbath was that 6 days man does his own work and then on the 7th, he does God's (or stops doing his). Now, applying this in the spiritual sense, when I become a Christian, I should cease from following my agenda and follow Christ's. This should be done 7 days a week and hence I have ceased from my own works. Incidentally, I also believe that Christ fulfilled that law of the Sabbath and now I regard every day equal unto God. If you don't that's fine - I think both positions are acceptable in the Bible.

Now, I do understand where your coming from in your interpretation of rest. I'm inclined to believe that its also true, but only in the physical sense. In the millenial kingdom, the saints will be doing Jesus's work (instead of having secular jobs) and that will be described as rest. As far as the interpretation of labour is concerned - I would consider a steadfast belief in the finished work of Jesus as labour for me. Personally, not letting go is hard work!

I would suggest in humility that you consider the person of the Holy Spirit as part of the Godhead. That will bring fulfilment to your life, before the revelation of Christ on Earth. We have a future hope and also a current hope. You know your KJV well, I hope interpretations will be revealed by the Spirit of Truth.

RGeeB

Incidentally, I also believe that Christ fulfilled that law of the Sabbath and now I regard every day equal unto God. If you don't that's fine - I think both positions are acceptable in the Bible.

I hear people say this all the time and I never understood how this could be. That would be like saying that Jesus fulfilled "Though shall not steal" - so now you can steal. Jesus fulfilled everything that He was supposed to at His first coming even down to being given vinegar.

He said:

Matt 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Since it is obvious all the things in prophesy are not fulfilled, it also seems obvious that nothing shall pass from the law. We still have heaven and Earth therefore "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law".

There will come a time when ALL WILL BE FULFILLED. But until then, the Law is in effect.

What does this statement by Jesus mean to you??

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

... and when you understand that the Lake of Fire IS in the Kingdom then this last sentence is understandable.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

It seems that a follower of Jesus might want to pay more attention to the Sabbath.

Isa 56
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

This is a yet future prophesy and there is MUCH emphasis on the Sabbath.

I'll end with James.

James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

This is what Jesus said - isn't it ?

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

See, Jesus said He'll fulfil it, not us. He fulfilled the law, is fulfilling it and will fulfil it. Since I'm incapable of doing it myself, I've put my faith in someone who can. I'm personally in Christ. I'm part of Christ's body - Since He is fulfilling the law, I'm doing it as well.

All the signs have and are coming true!

Felgar wrote:Thanks so much for your insight... You've certainly provided a lot to think about.

Elishyah wrote:I don't think its exactly a third but its alot. And as far as how people could be fooled by Satan after watching Jesus reign - I always have to go back to one of the first stupid things - the CALF.

Lets analyze this a bit. These people just watched 10 plagues on Egypt - 7 of which were not upon Israel. They watched the first born in Egypt die. They watched Moses hold up his staff and the sea open for them to cross over, not muddy but DRY land.
After all this they made a CALF, after the fact, and agreed that this Calf is what brought them out of Egypt. Everytime I read this it seems incredible. So, never doubt man's self-destructive tendencies.

Yeah I agree here - there will always be those that choose destruction. I've always pointed to Adam and Eve as one example, being that they walked with God but still disobeyed Him. And also the fall of the angels, who dwelt with God is all His glory.

P.S. Not sure where I originally got the 3rd from; I guess I must have borrowed it from the fall of the angels. But you're right, 1/3 is not specified. Thx for pointing that out.

Good day Elishyah - till next time.

12:7 probably Felgar where it talks about the 1/3 of stars

I realize there is much controversy over whether the raptire is pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib.
I have read that there could be more than one trib which would satisfy all the Scriptures about the rapture.