Hi Bart,
Brother, did the Lord lead you out of pastoring or do you feel you may pastor again or are you in a different kind of ministry now?
I just feel compelled to apologise all of a sudden on behalf of any of those in ORU who may have offended you in the past, by their own carelessness or sloppiness.
I would have felt grieved if I heard what you did, and (as I am now) I would have gone to the person who said that and spoke to them and (as the Lord is teaching me now) I would not repeat it to anyone else... oops hold on... we are all lead by the Lord on this board and we do hear His promptings... I feel the Holy Spirit has quickened to me the way in which the person you mentioned meant what he said, I just got a scene in my head when your with family memebers whom you love and they are all talking to you and you would lovingly ask one to wait up until another has finished speaking in a familiar way - Bart, I can tell this minister loves Jesus - and you feel that too right? I just feel I know they way he meant it and perhaps he shouldn't have said it out loud as some things are best kept in conversations between Him and us.
It's interesting, I just got back from a 6am daily prayer meeting at my Anglican church (it sprang up over the past 2 weeks Hallelujah!) and I notice how people pray. Sometimes they pray out loud corporately and talk to God in the same way I would talk during the day to Jesus, you know, when you share your thoughts and feelings. Now see, I don't pray like that when Im praying in the group corporatley; I pray from the Bible and make those verses our prayer and sometimes I interpret tongues - so perhaps the 'error' is mixing the two types of prayer and perhaps one is best not prayed in public or openly.
Now Bart, I know that techers are held to a higher standard - but that's by God right!? Can show me in the Word where it is appropriate to discuss and strive for truth publically in the way a lot of these websites do by criticizing ministers. I found one where it listed past 'sins' of them - and remember the web is public not just within the church. You mention about Leaders preaching publically - ALL leaders preach publicly - all churches are open to the public - so there is no difference - some ministers have used the resources God has given us and are preaching worldwide through different media. Imagine someone posting a billboard next to a town church stating on 3rd August 1983 the pastor of this church said..."
Also Gloria actually was talking about if she doesn't agree with a christian minister on a partiualar issue, she just won't buy their books but will still pray for them etc. I wonder how long thesse website owners who criticize minister spend (present tense) praying for them. It's serious business cutting into the Body of Christ.
I'll talk more later about other one-liners quoted (which in fairness is not fair - as they probably need the whole sermon as background and shed light on it) but will stop now in case this post looks too long!
Stay blessed and hope you'll be a blessing today Bart in whatever you're doing,
Doug
What do you know about this?
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Canuckster1127
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Doug,
Thanks for your prayers andyour response.
I pastored from 1988 - 1993 and following that, God led me to specialize more in administrative support and leadership. 11 of the last 14 years have been spent in administration as a Business Manager for a District Office within the Christian and Missionary Alliance and as a Church Adminstrator at a Presbyterian Church in America church inside the Washington DC beltway. I've also served at different times as an elder, board chairman, board member, teacher and guest speaker at different churches over that time.
Since 2005 I have entered the field of Federal Government consulting and am doing that while I am in the midst of a Masters program in Organizational Leadership at a C&MA School campus located beside the US Capitol building. Where I go after that is up to God's leading but I suspect if my desires are any indication, I will likely expand into writing and possibly another Christian organization. I'm content right now to just take things a step at a time. I've come to learn that unfortunately Churches are not much better than human based institutions when it comes to caring for people. In some regards, sadly they are at times no better. I've learned from that to take responsibility before God for my own service and to be very selective in where and how I serve. I have 5 children whom God has charged me to raise and care for, and frankly, I have not been shown an opportunity in direct ministry at this time that would allow me to meet their needs. I've come to understand that faith in ministry is a 2 way street. I am to serve by faith. However, a Church or Christian organization is also to have faith that when they call a man they pay him wages worthy of his role and hiring. I've pretty much learned that when a Church or Christian organization gets pious and asks for faith from their workers without addressing their own faith and sacrifice to support those workers, then that is a good sign not to accept a position. I've turned down several over the years on that basis and have felt peace in doing so now.
Ideally, I suppose in a perfect world, everyone would follow Matt 18 and there would be no disagreements. I believe that it is appropriate for those who speak and teach publically to be questioned appropriately in the same manner.
Lest you think I worry about or dwell on these issues with Copeland or Hagin, I think this is the first time I've every mentioned my experience observing Copeland at ORU. As it took place before over 4,000 people, I hardly think that it is or was a private matter. Just the interaction on this thread is what brought it back to mind. It was over 20 years ago.
I don't have a great deal of respect for Copeland and as you say, I simply don't listen to him or read his writings. I frankly have observed over the years that television ministry is a trap for many. I watched the PTL debacle, the fall of the city of faith, Swaggert etc. and have seen many others come and go in this area. The only person I strongly respect who has managed their life and ministry in this regard is Billy Graham. Most others try it seems to supplant or replace the local church, and when they do that, (and I watch what they do, not just what they say) then I just leave them to God and their followers but I'm not afraid to speak up and question their actions or teachings in a public forum. They teach in a public forum beyond even that of a local Church and they deserve to be held accountible. In fact, they need to be.
Anyway, hope that answers your questions or concerns. Part of my ministry now is serving on this board as a moderator and in so doing, I take what opportunities God shows me to minister to people by this means. I also teach at my church or support the teaching as opportunity arises.
Bart
Thanks for your prayers andyour response.
I pastored from 1988 - 1993 and following that, God led me to specialize more in administrative support and leadership. 11 of the last 14 years have been spent in administration as a Business Manager for a District Office within the Christian and Missionary Alliance and as a Church Adminstrator at a Presbyterian Church in America church inside the Washington DC beltway. I've also served at different times as an elder, board chairman, board member, teacher and guest speaker at different churches over that time.
Since 2005 I have entered the field of Federal Government consulting and am doing that while I am in the midst of a Masters program in Organizational Leadership at a C&MA School campus located beside the US Capitol building. Where I go after that is up to God's leading but I suspect if my desires are any indication, I will likely expand into writing and possibly another Christian organization. I'm content right now to just take things a step at a time. I've come to learn that unfortunately Churches are not much better than human based institutions when it comes to caring for people. In some regards, sadly they are at times no better. I've learned from that to take responsibility before God for my own service and to be very selective in where and how I serve. I have 5 children whom God has charged me to raise and care for, and frankly, I have not been shown an opportunity in direct ministry at this time that would allow me to meet their needs. I've come to understand that faith in ministry is a 2 way street. I am to serve by faith. However, a Church or Christian organization is also to have faith that when they call a man they pay him wages worthy of his role and hiring. I've pretty much learned that when a Church or Christian organization gets pious and asks for faith from their workers without addressing their own faith and sacrifice to support those workers, then that is a good sign not to accept a position. I've turned down several over the years on that basis and have felt peace in doing so now.
Ideally, I suppose in a perfect world, everyone would follow Matt 18 and there would be no disagreements. I believe that it is appropriate for those who speak and teach publically to be questioned appropriately in the same manner.
Lest you think I worry about or dwell on these issues with Copeland or Hagin, I think this is the first time I've every mentioned my experience observing Copeland at ORU. As it took place before over 4,000 people, I hardly think that it is or was a private matter. Just the interaction on this thread is what brought it back to mind. It was over 20 years ago.
I don't have a great deal of respect for Copeland and as you say, I simply don't listen to him or read his writings. I frankly have observed over the years that television ministry is a trap for many. I watched the PTL debacle, the fall of the city of faith, Swaggert etc. and have seen many others come and go in this area. The only person I strongly respect who has managed their life and ministry in this regard is Billy Graham. Most others try it seems to supplant or replace the local church, and when they do that, (and I watch what they do, not just what they say) then I just leave them to God and their followers but I'm not afraid to speak up and question their actions or teachings in a public forum. They teach in a public forum beyond even that of a local Church and they deserve to be held accountible. In fact, they need to be.
Anyway, hope that answers your questions or concerns. Part of my ministry now is serving on this board as a moderator and in so doing, I take what opportunities God shows me to minister to people by this means. I also teach at my church or support the teaching as opportunity arises.
Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender