Why are Christians still tithing

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:31 pm

authentic, ok You've studied. So visit that link, read what it say's then you'll get the idea. btw, how did Jesus 'render unto ceasar'?

authentic · Post by **authentic** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:35 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:authentic, ok You've studied. So visit that link, read what it say's then you'll get the idea. btw, how did Jesus 'render unto ceasar'?

lol...this website (with all due respect, of course) sounds like that damnable "word of faith" doctrine.. in other words its blasphemy. The bible clearly states that jesus was not a rich man. Now whether he had some money, or a steady income, i don't know it doesn't say. But, i notice that the author of this site uses very little scripture. And the scripture that he uses is bits and peices of verses and makes assumptions, instead of allowing them to talk for themselves. Now how about we see specifically how God feels about our relationship with money and see if he wants us to be "RICH":

revelations 3: 14-20

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:18 pm

I never said the bible wants us to be rich, I think were going a li'l OT here.

Jesus told his disciple to get a coin form a fish to pay the tax. God knows that money is a necessary tool in this world. The bible teaches that the love of money is the root of all evil, not money itself. And also says it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven.

Jesus wasn't 'rich' with silver and gold afaik. His ministry and travels often meant he had no where to lay his head. At any rate no where in the bible does it say having money is a bad thing.

However we are to put our trust in God rather than 'mammon'.

authentic · Post by **authentic** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:48 am

well i think we have found alittle common ground here, because i never attepted to say that we all should be financially poor, nor did i say that Jesus NEVER had money. But, the point i was making is that money can become an idol like anything else controls our life. Actually money is neither good or bad, its really a neutral thing. Its our mindset and how we use it, that makes it evil or good.

Now the teaching that is circulating about how Christ and the Apostles being rich, is incorrect. This is part of the hype that they use to convince people that we must follow Christ's example. So if Jesus was rich; and I want to be Christ-like; then i should be rich too. That is the game that they play with innocent church people. It basically causes people to focus on material possessions and not on God's word, which is the spirit of covetousness.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:37 pm

authentic wrote:
IRQ Conflict wrote:authentic, ok You've studied. So visit that link, read what it say's then you'll get the idea. btw, how did Jesus 'render unto ceasar'?
lol...this website (with all due respect, of course) sounds like that damnable "word of faith" doctrine.. in other words its blasphemy. The bible clearly states that jesus was not a rich man. Now whether he had some money, or a steady income, i don't know it doesn't say. But, i notice that the author of this site uses very little scripture. And the scripture that he uses is bits and peices of verses and makes assumptions, instead of allowing them to talk for themselves. Now how about we see specifically how God feels about our relationship with money and see if he wants us to be "RICH":

revelations 3: 14-20

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

those Scriptures say nothing about our relationship with Money. they tell us about our Mindset on the Money that we have.

Psa 112:1 Praise1984 ye the LORD.3050 Blessed835 is the man376 that feareth3372 (853) the LORD,3068 that delighteth2654 greatly3966 in his commandments.4687
Psa 112:2 His seed2233 shall be1961 mighty1368 upon earth:776 the generation1755 of the upright3477 shall be blessed.1288
Psa 112:3 Wealth1952 and riches6239 shall be in his house:1004 and his righteousness6666 endureth5975 forever.5703
Psa 112:4 Unto the upright3477 there ariseth2224 light216 in the darkness:2822 he is gracious,2587 and full of compassion,7349 and righteous.6662
Psa 112:5 A good2896 man376 showeth favor,2603 and lendeth:3867 he will guide3557 his affairs1697 with discretion.4941
Psa 112:6 Surely3588 he shall not3808 be moved4131 forever:5769 the righteous6662 shall be1961 in everlasting5769 remembrance.2143
Psa 112:7 He shall not3808 be afraid3372 of evil7451 tidings:4480, 8052 his heart3820 is fixed,3559 trusting982 in the LORD.3068
Psa 112:8 His heart3820 is established,5564 he shall not3808 be afraid,3372 until5704, 834 he see7200 his desire upon his enemies.6862
Psa 112:9 He hath dispersed,6340 he hath given5414 to the poor;34 his righteousness6666 endureth5975 forever;5703 his horn7161 shall be exalted7311 with honor.3519
Psa 112:10 The wicked7563 shall see7200 it, and be grieved;3707 he shall gnash2786 with his teeth,8127 and melt away:4549 the desire8378 of the wicked7563 shall perish.6

Ecc 5:18 Behold2009 that which834 I589 have seen:7200 it is good2896 and comely3303 for one to eat398 and to drink,8354 and to enjoy7200 the good2896 of all3605 his labor5999 that he taketh7945, 5998 under8478 the sun8121 all4557 the days3117 of his life,2416 which834 God430 giveth5414 him: for3588 it1931 is his portion.2506
Ecc 5:19 Every3605 man120 also1571 to whom834 God430 hath given5414 riches6239 and wealth,5233 and hath given him power7980 to eat398 thereof,4480 and to take5375 (853) his portion,2506 and to rejoice8055 in his labor;5999 this2090 is the gift4991 of God.430
Ecc 5:20 For3588 he shall not3808 much7235 remember2142 (853) the days3117 of his life;2416 because3588 God430 answereth6030 him in the joy8057 of his heart.3820

Deu 8:17 And thou say559 in thine heart,3824 My power3581 and the might6108 of mine hand3027 hath gotten6213 me (853) this2088 wealth.2428
Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember2142 (853) the LORD3068 thy God:430 for3588 it is he1931 that giveth5414 thee power3581 to get6213 wealth,2428 that4616 he may establish6965 (853) his covenant1285 which834 he swore7650 unto thy fathers,1 as it is this2088 day.3117

Tell me one thing. How does one know if Jesus was Rich or Not? Unfortunately if these Innocent Church people knew their Bible they would realize that God does want to bless his People but we have to realize to not put Money before God!

Here is a Scripture paul Writes about
1 CORINTHIANS 9:13-14 NKJ
13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar?
14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

This Scripture is based on this one from the old Testament
NUMBERS 18:21 NKJ
21 "Behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting.

We do have a commandment in the Bible on what to do with our Money

Mat 19:21 Jesus2424 said5346 unto him,846 If1487 thou wilt2309 be1511 perfect,5046 go5217 and sell4453 that thou hast,5224, 4675 and2532 give1325 to the poor,4434 and2532 thou shalt have2192 treasure2344 in1722 heaven:3772 and2532 come1204 and follow190 me.3427

or how about a Collection for the Saints

1Co 16:1 Now1161 concerning4012 the3588 collection3048 for1519 the3588 saints,40 as5618 I have given order1299 to the3588 churches1577 of Galatia,1053 even2532 so3779 do4160 ye.5210
1Co 16:2 Upon the first2596, 3391 day of the week4521 let every one1538 of you5216 lay5087 by3844 him1438 in store,2343 as3748, 302 God hath prospered2137 him, that2443 there be1096 no3361 gatherings3048 when(3752) I come.2064

how much should a Christian Give?

2Co 9:6 But1161 this5124 I say, He which soweth4687 sparingly5340 shall reap2325 also2532 sparingly;5340 and2532 he which soweth4687 bountifully1909, 2129 shall reap2325 also2532 bountifully.1909, 2129
2Co 9:7 Every man1538 according as2531 he purposeth4255 in his heart,2588 so let him give; not3361 grudgingly,1537, 3077 or2228 of1537 necessity:318 for1063 God2316 loveth25 a cheerful2431 giver.1395
2Co 9:8 And1161 God2316 is able1415 to make all grace abound4052, 3956, 5485 toward1519 you;5209 that2443 ye, always3842 having2192 all3956 sufficiency841 in1722 all3956 things, may abound4052 to1519 every3956 good18 work:2041

Anyways. So if Christians are wanting to give %10 as this is something easy to give then do so however be giving with a Cheerful heart!

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:46 pm

After reading some more I believe that Authentic is correct in what he says. Tithing (a tenth) is but A LAW HOWEVER Jesus gave us a Mission

Mat 19:21 Jesus2424 said5346 unto him,846 If1487 thou wilt2309 be1511 perfect,5046 go5217 and sell4453 that thou hast,5224, 4675 and2532 give1325 to the poor,4434 and2532 thou shalt have2192 treasure2344 in1722 heaven:3772 and2532 come1204 and follow190 me.3427

It is interesting researching the Tithe!

http://www.layhands.com/MustChristiansT ... ercent.htm

authentic · Post by **authentic** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:34 pm

my problem with the tithe is not the issue of not wanting to give. I try to give as much as i can when ever the oppotunity presents itself, and the spirit moves me. The issue is that now that we live under the new covenent of grace, we no longer give by rules and regulations. But we give out of a sincere and caring heart. The law of tithing and all of the other rituals and regulations were performed under compulsion and force. This is the reason the bible says that we are to be "cheerful givers" and at another point it says to "give according to how you have prospered". Therefore, if we give $20 or $500, the Lord is pleased as long as it is done out of of a generous and caring heart. So now, if i give my 10% but i do it begrudgingly, then it would be acceptable to God.

2 corinth. 9: 6-8

6But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

8And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work.

its pretty clear cut that we give from the heart and not from the letter of the Law.

authentic · Post by **authentic** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:41 pm

OH yes before i forget, someone asked for some biblical evidence regarding the specifics on tithing and how it doesn't relate to this present "new age tithing" by the church.

deuteromony 14: 22-29

22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

29And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

this is the law regarding the tithe, now after reading this tell me how many people tithe according to this LAW? I'm confident to say 0%!

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:26 pm

Authentic,

I don't really understand your objections to this. Of course we don't tithe because the Mosaic Law commands it. We are not now under that Law. That was a conditional covenant given to the Jews for the purpose of preparing the way for the coming Messiah. It was fulfilled in Him.

Now, I'm going to assume that you still believe the Mosaic Law is Scripture, though. While that doesn't mean we are under it in letter, we are still to submit to what it teaches us regarding God. What we know from the Law, in principle, is that God required (and thus justly) for His children to give. But, as I pointed out before, the tithe did not originate with the Jews any more than sacrifice did. Abraham tithed to Melchizidek (I don't feel like looking up the spelling). Clearly, he wasn't under the Law!

I believe in tithing. I believe in tithing because I find that it is a principle uniformly espouced by Scripture . . . that is, the basic principle of a) giving to support the work of the ministry, and b) giving of your "first fruits," whatever those fruits may be (money, bread, livestock, etc.).

Why 10%? I don't think it was then, or is now, some magical number. It was the culture of circa 2000 B.C. So, God used it there as well. Interestingly, that same number is used by modern financial planners when it comes to charities. You should give about 10% of your money away . . . 20% goes to savings, live on the rest. We can give more, of course.

Do I think it's a sin not to give? Yes I do, because to him who knows what is right and does not do it, it is sin. Is it right to support the ministry is feeding us? Absolutely. Should we give to support the ministerial work? Of course. Is the money we have our own? No. Has everything we own not been temporarily loaned to us by God so that we may be stewards for Him over it, using it to further His message? Yes.

I just don't understand undercutting the act of tithing because it is mentioned in the OT . . .

authentic · Post by **authentic** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:38 am

Jac3510 wrote:Authentic,

I don't really understand your objections to this. Of course we don't tithe because the Mosaic Law commands it. We are not now under that Law. That was a conditional covenant given to the Jews for the purpose of preparing the way for the coming Messiah. It was fulfilled in Him.

Now, I'm going to assume that you still believe the Mosaic Law is Scripture, though. While that doesn't mean we are under it in letter, we are still to submit to what it teaches us regarding God. What we know from the Law, in principle, is that God required (and thus justly) for His children to give. But, as I pointed out before, the tithe did not originate with the Jews any more than sacrifice did. Abraham tithed to Melchizidek (I don't feel like looking up the spelling). Clearly, he wasn't under the Law!

I believe in tithing. I believe in tithing because I find that it is a principle uniformly espouced by Scripture . . . that is, the basic principle of a) giving to support the work of the ministry, and b) giving of your "first fruits," whatever those fruits may be (money, bread, livestock, etc.).

Why 10%? I don't think it was then, or is now, some magical number. It was the culture of circa 2000 B.C. So, God used it there as well. Interestingly, that same number is used by modern financial planners when it comes to charities. You should give about 10% of your money away . . . 20% goes to savings, live on the rest. We can give more, of course.

Do I think it's a sin not to give? Yes I do, because to him who knows what is right and does not do it, it is sin. Is it right to support the ministry is feeding us? Absolutely. Should we give to support the ministerial work? Of course. Is the money we have our own? No. Has everything we own not been temporarily loaned to us by God so that we may be stewards for Him over it, using it to further His message? Yes.

I just don't understand undercutting the act of tithing because it is mentioned in the OT . . .

ok, i may need to make another thing clear. I'm not underminding Christian giving 10%, 30%, or 60% if their weekly income. I don't have a problem with that what so ever, if that is what God has lead you to do. My thing is that most of the church world pay tithes because of the law. I know this to be a fact because i always get Malichi thrown in my face. Now according to the new covenant, I don't see anywhere where God gives any specific percentage or amount to give, he just says be a chearful giver and to give according to how you have prospered. He wants us to give with the right motives. Whether its little or much. Therefore, again, if you want to give a tithe or tenth of your income.. then fine, but when you do it in observance of the Old Law then you must observe the entire law. Thats the point i'm trying to convey.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:04 am

Fair enough, and I've read you saying that, and that's totally fine. You've obviously got a better than Sunday school level understanding on these things, which is more than we can say for most people.

Let me ask you, though . . . in your mind, what is the place and purpose of OT Scripture? How, for instance, would you teach Malachi?

authentic · Post by **authentic** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:23 am

Jac3510 wrote:Fair enough, and I've read you saying that, and that's totally fine. You've obviously got a better than Sunday school level understanding on these things, which is more than we can say for most people.

Let me ask you, though . . . in your mind, what is the place and purpose of OT Scripture? How, for instance, would you teach Malachi?

Malichi was directed to the Levitical Priests. The purpose of the tithe was to serve the Levitical Priest and their families(since they could not work and earn income), from their they were to pay tithes on the tithes they recieved. Also some tithes we distributed to widows, forgeiners, and the poor. They (THE PREISTS), where robbing God for not paying tithes of the tithes they received. This is how they were holding back their blessings. This book was not directed to the people of Isreal it was directed to the preists or -in our day- the pastors. The storehouse was a literal storehouse where the tithes were gathered (crop of the field, wine, cattle, oxen...etc).. It was not the temple or the church. So this is an overall description of Malachi, unfortunately, people seem to only read from Malachi chapter 3 on down and don't start from the beginning to get the entire context of the letter.

authentic · Post by **authentic** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:32 am

Jac3510 wrote: Let me ask you, though . . . in your mind, what is the place and purpose of OT Scripture?

the place of OT scripture served as a shadow of the coming Christ, the OT was the prophecy and the NT was the fulfillment of the prophecy. Now you may think i'm trying to nullify the importance of the OT, i certainly am not. Actually the OT contain great wisdom, and is actually the foundation for our belief. But it must be rightly divided. It is clear that , under grace, we do not have to observe the rituals, ceremonies, and regulations carried out by the Old covenant. The law it self viewed by God didn't change, but it is now manifest in a different way. Example, the law of adultury and fornication is still recognized but, christ said that if you "look at a woman lustfully, you commit adultry with her".. Meaning that the Law is no longer physical , it is now a law of the heart. We no longer stone transgressers of the law, (if we did then most of us would be dead).. But now we can go to God direct in Jesus name for repentance... So we need to hold it in proper understanding.

IRQ Conflict · Post by **IRQ Conflict** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:45 am

Very good, the ol bait n switch. I thought you were looking for answers, but what you really wanted was to teach. Although I knew the answers in general your post forced me to research something I hadn't in many many years. Behold, something old has become new.

Thank you! and God Bless!

authentic · Post by **authentic** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:19 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:Very good, the ol bait n switch. I thought you were looking for answers, but what you really wanted was to teach. Although I knew the answers in general your post forced me to research something I hadn't in many many years. Behold, something old has become new.

Thank you! and God Bless!

well, i don't see myself as a teacher.. just a student, i don't want to edify myself. I'm constantly learning like everyone else.