Total Depravity of Humanity.

[FFC]

Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

[Turgonian]

Copied from: http://monergism.com/thethreshold/artic ... sheet.html

How Jesus Died for “All” and Yet for a Particular People (2)

These texts speak of Christ's saving work in general terms: John 1:9; John 1:29; John 3:16-17; John 4:42; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; 1 Timothy 2:4-6; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:1-2; 1 John 4:14.

One reason for the use of these expressions was to correct the false notion that salvation was for the Jews alone. Such phrases as “the world,” “all men,” “all nations,” and “every creature” were used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct this mistake. These expressions are intended to show that Christ died for all men without distinction (i.e., he died for Jews and Gentiles alike), but they are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception (i.e., he did not die for the purpose of saving each and every lost sinner).

These texts speak of Christ's saving work in definite terms and show that it was intended to infallibly save a particular people, namely, those given to him by the Father: Matthew 1:21; Matthew 20:28; Matthew 26:28; John 10:11; John 11:50-53; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32-34; Ephesians 5:25-27; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 3:1; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 9:28; Revelation 5:9.

[YLTYLT]

Matthew 18:11
For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luke 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


So Turg,
From what you are saying and if you include the scriptures above:
Then only those that are (or will be) saved were lost. That would mean the rest of the world is not lost?

But that cannot be right either , can it?

2 Corinthians 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.

If the gospel is hidden to the lost yet only the lost will become saved, then the gospel is hidden to he saved. Which makes no sense. Or it could mean that the Gospel is not hidden to those that are not saved. Nope that does not work either. ---

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Turg, based on the above reasoning, I do not understand or accept your (or the author you quoted) scriptural interpretation. Are you 100% sure of this so that you would be willing to address these scriptures?



In Christ,

[B. W.]

Copied from: http://monergism.com/thethreshold/artic ... sheet.html

How Jesus Died for “All” and Yet for a Particular People (2)

These texts speak of Christ's saving work in general terms: John 1:9; John 1:29; John 3:16-17; John 4:42; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; 1 Timothy 2:4-6; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:1-2; 1 John 4:14.

One reason for the use of these expressions was to correct the false notion that salvation was for the Jews alone. Such phrases as “the world,” “all men,” “all nations,” and “every creature” were used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct this mistake. These expressions are intended to show that Christ died for all men without distinction (i.e., he died for Jews and Gentiles alike), but they are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception (i.e., he did not die for the purpose of saving each and every lost sinner).

These texts speak of Christ's saving work in definite terms and show that it was intended to infallibly save a particular people, namely, those given to him by the Father: Matthew 1:21; Matthew 20:28; Matthew 26:28; John 10:11; John 11:50-53; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32-34; Ephesians 5:25-27; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 3:1; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 9:28; Revelation 5:9.

Here is a good tip to remember while discussing this issue:

As I stated on another thread and quote in part below: try to balance what you are discussing with God's nature, character, and wisdom. If it irreconcilably contradicts God's nature, character, and wisdom, then it is in error.

Does your doctrine measure up to the standards of God Himself?

What ever God does, plans, speaks, will be according to his nature, character, and wisdom. He will not change nor deny his own self. God remains true to himself, if not there could be no order, no life. Measuring your doctrines against who God is will cause you to know if your doctrine is founded on the Lord or not. Are you willing to do this?

Deuteronomy 32:3-5, “because I will proclaim the name of Jehovah and ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He. They have corrupted themselves; they are not His sons; it is their blemish; they are a crooked and perverse generation.” KJV

This passage reveals these points about God, his nature, character, and wisdom: 1) His work is perfect. 2) For all His ways are just, 3) a God of faithfulness, 4) and without evil 5) just and upright is He.

Does doctrine line up with all these? Or does it fail? Are you willing to test it?

God is Omnipotent, all knowing, all wise, everywhere, will your doctrine line up with his nature? The bible declares these truths.

God is fair and just, the way he does things is right and does nothing in vain, there is no wickedness in God.

Psalm 9:8, “And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness, [fairness, equity, even handedness].”

Psalm 98:9. “Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity. [fairness, even handedness].”

Isaiah 45:18-19, “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.”

Does what you believe about God's ways line up with the characteristics God reveals about himself?

God is also self existent, self-sufficient, eternal, infinite, immutable, sovereign, holy, true, faithful, light, good, merciful, gracious, love, Trinity, incomprehensible. These things the bible reveals — does you doctrine violate any of these by contradictions?

Quite a test — testing what you believe on the matters of man's Total Depravity and God's salvation, etc! By such a test, you'll discover balance and contradictions cleared up and corrected. This will take time but it will bear good fruit in due season.

God Bless
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[Turgonian]

B.W. -- I would say it lines up with God's characteristics, yes. If God would only be fair, He would damn us all. But His mercy and incomprehensible love have prompted Him to save men.
I must say I would rather put my own notions of God to the test of Scripture, than the other way around, by the way.

YLTYLT -- (Please call me Turgy, not Turg...it sounds so bad.)
About the first two texts: 1) sinners are lost, 2) Jesus has come to save those who are not, 3) Jesus has come to save sinners... Sounds biblical to me. Of course the rest of the world is lost. Do these two texts (Matt. 18:11, Luke 19:10) indicate ALL of the world will be saved?
II Cor. 4:3 is translated in the NIV by 'those who are perishing', i.e. the people whose eyes God has not opened to believe 'the foolishness of preaching'. Instead, He has surrendered them to 'the god of this world', who blinds their minds to the Gospel.

I don't quite see your problem.

[LowlyOne]

B.W. -- I would say it lines up with God's characteristics, yes. If God would only be fair, He would damn us all. But His mercy and incomprehensible love have prompted Him to save men.

Do you really think it would be fair of God to damn us all? I mean, according to the Calvinist understanding of God's Sovereignty, God ordains all things. All things- includes the fall and the affects of the fall, which includes God's choice to give every person a fallen nature inclined towards and hungering for sin and a life of self-centered wickedness. Mankind is just doing what God predetermined. All of this is God's appointed plan and choice. Not ours. Mankind did not ask to be like this.

So is this just:
God predetermind man to be evil
Mankind acts evil because of their nature
God damns mankind for being who they are, sinners.

[FFC]

B.W. -- I would say it lines up with God's characteristics, yes. If God would only be fair, He would damn us all. But His mercy and incomprehensible love have prompted Him to save men.

Do you really think it would be fair of God to damn us all? I mean, according to the Calvinist understanding of God's Sovereignty, God ordains all things. All things- includes the fall and the affects of the fall, which includes God's choice to give every person a fallen nature inclined towards and hungering for sin and a life of self-centered wickedness. Mankind is just doing what God predetermined. All of this is God's appointed plan and choice. Not ours. Mankind did not ask to be like this.

So is this just:
God predetermind man to be evil
Mankind acts evil because of their nature
God damns mankind for being who they are, sinners.

When you put it that way it just sounds wrong

[Turgonian]

Do you really think it would be fair of God to damn us all?

It's called 'judgement'. Do you think it would be fair of God to allow a number of people into heaven? Or is 'merciful' a better word here?

I mean, according to the Calvinist understanding of God's Sovereignty, God ordains all things. All things- includes the fall and the effects of the fall, which includes God's choice to give every person a fallen nature inclined towards and hungering for sin and a life of self-centered wickedness.

Wrong. It was man's choice; God foreknew it. Today, man's will is in bondage to sin; Adam's was not. He had an Arminian free will!

Mankind is just doing what God predetermined. All of this is God's appointed plan and choice. Not ours. Mankind did not ask to be like this.

Mankind chose to be like this. And yes, God's plan stands eternally.
'Not ours'...that's right. God is God and we are not. I assure you, if I would be god, the world would be a much worse place than it is now.

So is this just:
God predetermined man to be evil

Wrong, because there was complete free will before the Fall.

Mankind acts evil because of their nature

Correct.

God damns mankind for being who they are, sinners.

Last time I looked, God didn't damn 'mankind', but only part of it. See also here -- a response to 'Why Calvinists can't solve the Problem of Evil' (which article is included in its entirety).

But why don't you change your third sentence to 'God saves mankind despite of who they are, faithless sinners'?

Is it starting to sound better, FFC?

[B. W.]

B.W. -- I would say it lines up with God's characteristics, yes. If God would only be fair, He would damn us all. But His mercy and incomprehensible love have prompted Him to save men.
I must say I would rather put my own notions of God to the test of Scripture, than the other way around, by the way.

YLTYLT -- (Please call me Turgy, not Turg...it sounds so bad.)
About the first two texts: 1) sinners are lost, 2) Jesus has come to save those who are not, 3) Jesus has come to save sinners... Sounds biblical to me. Of course the rest of the world is lost. Do these two texts (Matt. 18:11, Luke 19:10) indicate ALL of the world will be saved?
II Cor. 4:3 is translated in the NIV by 'those who are perishing', i.e. the people whose eyes God has not opened to believe 'the foolishness of preaching'. Instead, He has surrendered them to 'the god of this world', who blinds their minds to the Gospel.

I don't quite see your problem.

It is good to see that many are using a fine ruler to messure doctrine on!

Please continue - I'll take a back seat and watch the show!

God Bless!!
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[YLTYLT]

Turgy, (Sorry for the shortening of you name earlier, I had not realized the implications )

My point in reference to Mat 18:11 is that this text is in direct contradiction to the Calvinists doctrine. I guess what I was trying to point out is that God's will and God's desire is not necessarily the same, as the Calvinists doctrine asserts. If you hold to everything that the Calvinist asserts then Mat 18:11 would indicate one of 2 both equally ridiculous possibilities:

1. God will save all people
2. Some people were never lost or in need of salvation.

To explain further:

Calvinists say that Gods will is the same as God's desire. The Bible says God desires all men to be saved. But Calvinists say that "all men" refers to only the elect, because Calvinists know that not all men will be saved but that all of God's will shall come to pass and there is nothing we can do about it.

Well, if this is true, then from this text:

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

We now the following
1. God came to save that which is lost.
2. We were all lost at one point. Some still are. Some will forever be lost. 3. So if God's will equals God's desire then the Son of man did not do what he came to do (at least according to Calvinist thinking).

But we know He always does exactly what he intended to do,and therefore the Calvinist doctrine is flawed, not necessarily completely incorrect, but most definitely flawed.

See, if you hold to the Calvinist thinking that God's desire is equal to his will, then you get a confused doctrine where either everybody gets saved or some people were never lost, which both ideas are ridiculous when you line up to other scriptures.


In Christ,

[Turgonian]

Turgy, (Sorry for the shortening of you name earlier, I had not realized the implications )

Forget it.

My point in reference to Mat 18:11 is that this text is in direct contradiction to the Calvinists doctrine. I guess what I was trying to point out is that God's will and God's desire is not necessarily the same, as the Calvinists doctrine asserts. If you hold to everything that the Calvinist asserts then Mat 18:11 would indicate one of 2 both equally ridiculous possibilities:

1. God will save all people
2. Some people were never lost or in need of salvation.

First, the NIV omits this passage, so it might not have been in God's Word in the first place. Second, it doesn't mean that at all: the text says 'God came to save that which is lost', not 'God came to save everything that is lost'. Sinners are lost; God came to save sinners (but not all); God came to save that which is lost (but not everything).

See, if you hold to the Calvinist thinking that God's desire is equal to his will, then you get a confused doctrine where either everybody gets saved or some people were never lost, which both ideas are ridiculous when you line up to other scriptures.

Well, God's stated desire is often something different from His decretive will. For instance, God desires that no one follows idols, yet many have followed idols in accord with God's secret plan.
If you hold to the Arminian thinking that God desires all men to be saved, but Christ didn't actually save anyone, knew that many would reject Him and still saw His labour and was satisfied, how confused can you get?

[FFC]

If you hold to the Arminian thinking that God desires all men to be saved, but Christ didn't actually save anyone, knew that many would reject Him and still saw His labour and was satisfied, how confused can you get?

But, Turgy, Christ did die on the cross and take away the sins of the world, but just because God knew that some would believe that and receive christ as Savior and some wouldn't doesn't mean Jesus died for nothing...does it? God desires all to be saved.

The same thing went for His chosen people, the Jews:

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

If God knows these people are not part of his elect He is foolishly wasting His time. On the other hand if He knows they are part of his elect then His irresistible grace is much to be desired.

The point is God is calling to them. They have the choice to respond or reject. If not then God is seriously wasting His time.

[Turgonian]

No; He is not 'foolishly wasting His time', but giving them enough warning so that they can't complain 'We never heard that'. People have responsibility and are called upon to do good. Even if they can't, the more they hear what they have to do, the more culpable they are for not doing it.

If Jesus died without accomplishing anyone's salvation (only opening up a possibility), He might be very disappointed that so many people would refuse Him, right?

[Canuckster1127]

No; He is not 'foolishly wasting His time', but giving them enough warning so that they can't complain 'We never heard that'. People have responsibility and are called upon to do good. Even if they can't, the more they hear what they have to do, the more culpable they are for not doing it.

If Jesus died without accomplishing anyone's salvation (only opening up a possibility), He might be very disappointed that so many people would refuse Him, right?

Doesn't this explaination possibly beg the question, that if God is solely responsible for calling and electing people, and the fact that there are many people throughout history who have never heard the Christian message, then any element of "fairness" in this regard would have to be moot?

[Turgonian]

And if God gives everyone a choice, how is it most people have never been offered that choice?

God uses means. He uses preachers, mainly, or sometimes visions. God could have informed everyone personally about the Gospel, but He chose the way of the Great Commission. However, we don't know what happens to those who have never heard the Gospel, only that who shall seek, shall find.

Like I said, 'fairness' doesn't come into play here, only 'incomprehensible mercy', 'amazing grace' or similar terms. By the way, Canuckster, what do you think of God's election of the Jewish people, to the exclusion of the Midianites, Canaanites, Indians, Chinese, &c.? Unfair?