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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:12 pm
by purelyironic
Thank you, this was the type of response i wanted.
Jac3510 wrote:Concerning the interpretation you would have us believe, the primarily problem is that it is purely arbitrary. You are basing your entire interpretation on a series of coincidences. The lion is England, and the wings are America, because the lion and eagle are their representative animals?!? Please. The lion is Babylon. That was their national symbol as well, but even more specific, it is Nebuchadnezzar. The removal of the wings, with his walking upright, was a reference to his healing of insanity.
Since when do wings represent insanity? Both arguements are arbitrary.
Jac3510 wrote:You say the bear is russia, based on nothing.
There is a reasoning behind it. I will show it in my next post.
Jac3510 wrote:You argue the leapord is Germany because the word "reich" sounds like "rise." You are aware that Daniel was written in Hebrew and Aramaic and not English, right?!?
No. Reich is the german word for rise. There is no reich in the bible. I was just saying the word in German since we were discussing Germany.
Jac3510 wrote:And you seem to believe the last kingdom refers to the European Union. Why couldn't it have been the League of Nations? Why not some future confederation of nations? What about an Arab Alliance?!?
That is just my logical assumption. It could definatly be another combination as long as certain countries are involved.
Jac3510 wrote:The second problem is your presentation. Even if we were to consider your position valid, you automatically set the deck against yourself by coming out guns a' blazin'. Here's a future tip for you. People generally respond the way you approach them. You post an article ridiculing a very solidily defended and traditionally held position, and you do it with little to no evidence, you won't be well received. Again, I don't know how you are with other Christians, but if this is the way you normally approach issues, this is the way you will consistently be accepted.
Understood. I am sorry.

Below i will quote a passage. I recomend skipping to the bottom and reading it from the link because the actual article has pictures.

I just randomly found this on goodle and this guy just happened to come up with most of the same theories as Irvin Baxtor. However, he lacks on knowledge in some important aspects(what the four heads of Germany represent) so he must have never studied Irvins theories.

The more convincing reasoning for Germany being the leapord is because for the majority of its past its animal symbol was the leapord. They later changed it to panther, and now have recently changed it to the black eagle.

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:15 pm
by purelyironic
"Over the years I've learned an interesting scriptural principle that applies to all Bible study, but
has particular application in the study of prophecy. If you've spent much time studying the scriptures, you've seen this principle in action. It may be described as follows.

As I've continued to study The Word Of God, certain passages have proved difficult to interpret, and all commentaries and explanations I've ever found continue to prove unsatisfactory. In these areas, there is always a hidden blessing if you will simply persevere and dig deeper as you seek to discern the meaning. This principle was recently reaffirmed as I'm convinced that I've finally 'broken through' to an understanding of a passage that has intrigued me for years. I'm referring to Daniel's famous dream of the four beasts that are documented in Daniel chapter seven.

In this chapter, Daniel sees four unusual beasts that are clearly symbolic of four kingdoms in world history. The first beast was a like a lion that had the wings of an eagle, while the second beast was a bear described as having "three ribs in the mouth of it."1. The third beast was a leopard with 4 heads, and the fourth beast was described as "...dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth...and it had ten horns."2.

There is no doubt that the vision describes four world kingdoms as an angel specifically tells Daniel that "these great beasts which are four are four kings which shall rise out of the earth."3. The problem I've had with this chapter is the identification of the four kingdoms.

Practically every scholar and prophecy commentator has routinely identified these 4 kingdoms of Daniel 7 as simply a reiteration of the four kingdoms described earlier in Daniel chapter two. In fact, several popular Bible editions actually interpret Daniel 7 right in their margin notes as the same four kingdoms mentioned in Daniel chapter two. 4. This gives the conventional interpretation an added credibility which it does not deserve.

You'll recall Daniel chapter two has the description of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the great statue. In this classic prophecy the king sees a great statue with a head of Gold, arms of silver, thighs of brass, and legs of iron. The description of the legs is further described as including two feet with ten toes. There really isn't much doubt about the identities in this dream for Daniel specifically tells the king of Babylon that he, Nebuchadnezzar, is the head of gold. 5.

Daniel's interpretation continues as he describes three kingdoms that will succeed the Babylonian empire. These three kingdoms are represented by the silver arms, the brass thighs and the iron legs. Since secular history clearly establishes the fact that the Babylonian empire was followed by the Medo-Persian empire (the arms of silver), the Grecian empire (the thighs of brass) and the Roman empire (the legs of iron), Nebuchadnezzar 's famous dream is a striking example of the accuracy of Bible prophecy.

But are the four world empires of the statue in Daniel chapter two necessarily synonymous with the four beast kingdoms of Daniel chapter seven? I'm convinced they are different kingdoms from different eras, and the fact that this interpretation of Daniel's four beast kingdoms has been distorted has masked the fulfillment of Bible prophecy in our time. In other words, there's a reason for the misinterpretive system being propagated. It is designed to mislead and deceive the believer in Jesus Christ into a deadly misunderstanding and false identification of the key components of last days prophetic fulfillment.

Before I offer an alternative interpretation of the four beasts, I need to outline the reasons why the conventional synchronized interpretation is usually followed. There are many similarities between the two vision/dreams and that may account for the broad acceptance of the synonymous/concurrent interpretation of the two vision/dreams. For example, in Daniel chapter two, the head of gold is described as superior to the kingdoms of silver, brass, and iron. The commentators commonly connect the regal aspect of the Babylonian kingdom (the head of gold) with the royal imagery associated with the lion of chapter seven's vision.

There is very little to identify the second beast (the bear) with the second "statue" empire of Daniel chapter 2 (the Medo-Persian) so interpreters usually focus on the third kingdom as it provides a more credible argument. The third kingdom of the statue dream (brass thighs) was Alexander The Great's Grecian empire, and it is routinely compared to the third kingdom of the beast vision, the leopard.

Because the leopard is noted for speed, it is commonly identified with Alexander's meteoric military acquisition of territory. Another apparent connection between the third kingdoms is found in yet another chapter of the book of Daniel. In that passage (found in Daniel chapter eight), Alexander is symbolized as a "rough goat" with a large horn. 6.

In that vision, the large horn is broken, and replaced by four horns; and once again, an angel is there to interpret the vision. The angel tells Daniel that "the great horn is...the first king. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation...." 7.

This passage validates once again prophetic accuracy as history records that after Alexander's death, his kingdom was divided between four of his generals. The fact that the Grecian empire (the third "statue" empire) was divided four ways helped to identify the four heads of the Leopard (the third "beast" vision) with Alexander and his four generals.

Just to keep the confusion to a minimum with all these 'fours,' I need to point out that these four horns that succeed Alexander's Grecian kingdom in the "goat" vision of chapter eight are entirely separate from the four "statue" kingdoms of chapter two and the four "beast" kingdoms of chapter seven.

It's not hard to see why there's confusion on this, but bear with me, for we're closing in on the true identification of all of these kingdoms.

The final factor that is usually used to connect the four "statue" kingdoms with the four "beast" kingdoms is the fact that both fourth kingdoms incorporate the number ten. In the statue dream, the ten toes on the feet of the iron legs (the fourth and final kingdom of chapter two) are specifically highlighted. In the beast vision, the fourth and final beast has ten horns. Because the ten toes are associated with the Roman empire, it is commonly believed that the ten horns on the fourth beast somehow represent a 'revived' Roman empire.

It is these two chapters, and several other passages in the book of Revelation, that give rise to the notion that the Roman empire will somehow be "revived" by the prophetic figure we commonly call The Antichrist. Because the fourth beast kingdom is plainly seen to be the final world dominion run by The Antichrist, it is crucial that we accurately identify these four kingdoms. In other words, if we get this chapter wrong, we may not actually recognize key prophetic events because we'll looking in the wrong place. I contend that is precisely what is occurring today, and the Christian church is running out of time to recognize the truth.

There are two separate sets of four kingdoms. These two visions are millennia apart and the key to understanding each of them is the nation of Israel. The common denominator in every one of them is their relationship to the Jewish people. The four kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's statue are the four kingdoms that provide a historic countdown to the destruction of the Jewish state.

Beginning with Babylon, all four kingdoms dominated the people of Israel. The fourth kingdom (the legs of iron), the Roman empire, presided over the destruction of Israel in 70 AD. The fourth kingdom also provided the countdown to the first coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Conversely, the four beast kingdoms function in reverse as they provide the historic countdown to the resurrection of the state of Israel; and once again these empires also serve as a sequential countdown to the second coming of Christ.

The first great beast was "...like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld until the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it."8. This beast does not describe the Babylonian empire of the 5th century BC. but instead describes the British empire of the last two hundred years. It begins the historic chronology of nations that brought about the resurrection of the modern state of Israel.

Throughout most of its history, England has employed the crowned lion as the official heraldry symbol of the royal families. The lion appears on almost every coat of arms in the British royal line going back at least 700 years. It is instructive to note that the British lion is usually seen standing up on its two hind feet precisely the way the prophecy states The figure shown in figure I is an actual rendering of a genuine British heraldic coat of arms.

In addition to dozens of examples of British lions standing on two legs, I have at least one documented copy of a coat of arms of William I (1066-1087) that shows the British lion with eagles wings. 9. Because the United States is so widely associated with the eagle, it is difficult not to associate the eagle's wings that are attached to the lion with America. The fact that the wings were removed would clearly seem to refer to the American independence and thereby strengthens the identification.

Historically speaking, it is not an understatement to say that the action of the British throne in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 was the single most important move towards the establishment of a Jewish state in modern history. If you remember your World War I history, you'll recall it was the British army, led by General George Allenby that liberated Jerusalem from the Moslems in 1917. The British then opened the door to Jewish immigration into the Holy Land. Daniel's prophecy stated that this lion empire will be humane as "...a man's heart was given to it."10.

In an odd role reversal, one of the most famous British monarchs was Richard the Lionhearted -- instead of a lion with a man's heart, this king was styled as a man with a lion's heart. Ultimately, while the British lion's constructive interaction with the dispersed Jewish people began the countdown towards a resurrected state of Israel, the Russian Bear also affected Jewish immigration -- but in a more ominous way.

The Russian purges and persecutions of native Russian Jews were called pogroms, and they manifested some of the worst anti-semitic hatred ever seen in modern history.

The beast prophecy describes "...a second beast, like to a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, Arise, devour much flesh."11. This dark characterization of the devouring beast is in stark contrast to the humane lion before it, and again strengthens the identification of the beast kingdoms with the modem states that impacted the emergence of the state of Israel.

The bear is widely recognized as the universal symbol of Russia and her various satellite nations during the era of the Soviet Union. The imagery associated with the bleak Russian winters probably contributed to this symbol. The fact is, in political cartoons, historical essays, and native Russian symbology, the bear is broadly identified with the Russian state (see figure 2). Even Time Magazine once ran a major story that depicted Russia as a hungry bear on the cover.

It should be noted that the Bolshevik revolution that brought about the world's first communist regime actually occurred in the very same time period and year (November 1917) as the British liberation of Palestine (Israel). This helps to establish the chronological continuity between the first and second beasts.

A subtle prophetic detail is found in the fact that the world's first communist dictatorship that emerged in Russia actually brought about the political idiom that describes nations and political parties as 'leftist' or 'rightist.' To this very day, the communists are said to be to the left, the fascists are to the right, and democracies are centrist. How fascinating that the first leftist government in the history of the world was described in scripture 2,500 years ago as a beast that "...raised up on one of its sides."12.

The three ribs "between its teeth" probably relates to the three Baltic states that were gobbled up by The Soviet Union; or they could describe the three Trans-Caucasian states (Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan) assimilated by the earlier Russian empire -- take your pick. In any event, the corollary verse where the bear is told to "devour much flesh" was certainly fulfilled by the greatest single mass murderer in the history of planet Earth, Joseph Stalin. He brutally executed approximately 50 million people in the evil empire that was The Soviet Union.

While other prophecy observers have noticed the similarities between the British Lion and the Russian Bear,13. it is the third beast that has caused all the trouble. The scripture describes it as "..like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast has also four heads; and dominion as given to it."14. This prophecy baffled me for quite a while until I simply asked myself what world power coincided with the British and Russian empires. The Leopard can't refer to America for our symbol is obviously the eagle, so what nation's twentieth century history has played a role that is comparable with that of Russia, England, and The US? What modern nation has played a similarly crucial role in their relationship with the Jewish people? It could only be Germany.

The question of identifying the Leopard with Germany is advanced by consulting the Encyclopedia Americana where we abruptly realize that a leopard is actually another word for Panther. The leopard "...is more commonly called Panther in India...."15. It is interesting to note the German language is from the Indo-European branch where the Nazi party extracted their distorted concept of the term Aryan Sanskrit word from India.

The German people seem to have a particular fondness for the Panther, and we find the term is utilized broadly in Germanic culture. In the German television industry, for example, a major vendor is Panther Electronics. In the military, two prominent naval vessels (a cruiser and a gunboat) were both named The Panther. Under Hitler'sThird Reich, the primary tanks were named Panthers, while another tank was the Panther's relative the Tiger. The armored divisions of the Nazi's were known as Panzer divisions -- certainly evocative of panthers.

Because the lion, the bear, and the Leopard/Panther are all beasts of prey, the connotation intrinsic in the imagery of these beasts is clearly militaristic. The panther would probably be the best predatory animal image of the German militarists of both world wars. As the big cat is known for speed and agility, so was the military machine of the Weimar Republic (World War I) as well as the Wehrmacht of World War II.


According to the Encyclopedia Americana, "...lightning war was thought by the Prussian (German) general staff to 'be the only means to win…'."16. Similarly, Hitler inaugurated what was called "Blitzkrieg" (lightning) warfare. Again, the historical record shows that "...German theory was based on mobile warfare...German artillery was therefore exceptionally mobile."17. The panther is probably the most mobile beast of prey in existence.

The Leopard in Daniel's vision was described as "having four wings like those of a fowl" as well as "four heads." Lets take the wings first. Unlike the eagle's wings mentioned in connection with earlier British/Lion figure, the prophecy specifically states there were four wings. Because no bird has one wing, this would appear to imply two sets of wings, or perhaps two forces that assist the panther. History records the forces of The Axis encompassed Germany, Italy, and Japan. Both Japan and Italy were active in the air war, so it's possible this refers to Germany's two air power allies that backed Hitler in World War II.

In reference to the "four heads," we find there are so many groups of 'fours' that it's difficult to know which one is actually being referred to. In the early stages of the nation, there were four major Germanic tribes: The Angles, Saxons, Alemans, and Franks. Before the turn of the century there were four prominent states -- Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, and Wurttemberg. The first federal government of Germany "consisted of four free cities loosely bound together...."18.

The likelihood is the four heads refer to the fourfold division of authority that occurred under the four victorious allies under the QUADRIPARTITE agreement that legally enforced the occupation of Germany after Hitler's defeat. After the war, four military commanders controlled Germany.

"An interallied agency, called the Kommandatura, operated as the four power coordinating group...."19. in the administration of the country. The Encyclopedia tells us a government structure known as The Allied Control Authority was created "...composed of the four zone commanders."20. A Russian general controlled the Eastern zone, a British general ran the Northwestern zone, a French general ran the Southwestern zone, and an American general administered the western zone. This arrangement continued for years after the war.

It is at this point that we see one of the most striking examples of dual fulfillment in biblical prophecy. Just as the third kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar's statue dream (the Grecian empire of Alexander The Great) was replaced by four generals in what has come to be known as the Ptolemaic period, the third kingdom of Daniel's beast vision (Nazi Germany) was also replaced by four generals.

In the previously mentioned "ram/goat" vision described in Daniel chapter 8, we saw a detailed prophecy concerning this fragmenting of the third kingdom of the statue prophecy. In the ram/goat vision, the "great horn" of the powerful goat was predictive of Alexander The Great. The scripture says that...when he was strong, the great horn was broken, and for it came up four notable ones towards the four winds of heaven."21. The "four notable ones" were the four key generals that had served under Alexander, and they divided up the empire between them. The power struggle that ensued eventually boiled down to 2 factions that produced a series of wars known as the Ptolemaic-Seleucid wars.

The Seleucid kings were descended from Seleucus I, the general that ruled Syria under Alexander. His opponent was Ptolemy I, the general that ruled Egypt. For almost 200 years, these two dynasties controlling Syria in the north and Egypt in the south brought the Israelites into constant military turmoil. The northern Syrian kingdom eventually generated the most hideous and demonic leader of his day: Antiochus Epiphanes.

Antiochus persecuted the Jews in unheard of ways, but he was finally overthrown. The occupied state of Israel then passed into the hands of the fourth kingdom of the statue dream -- Rome.

The reason I've gone into such detail here needs to be clarified. Since both vision/dreams are clearly operating in parallel with dual fulfillment of the prophecies, an accurate identification of the various players should provide solid evidence relating to the identity of the final world empire and its leader. To put it another way, if we misidentify the first 3 kingdoms of the beast vision, how could we possibly expect to accurately identify the fourth, and final kingdom?

This point is so important that it's worth repeating. The third kingdom of both vision/dreams is the next to the last kingdom. In both cases, they precede the fourth, and most important kingdoms. Both third kingdoms were noted for the speed in which they conquered surrounding nations. Both third kingdoms culminated in the death of their charismatic leader, and both kingdoms were marked by a transitional governmental composed of four military leaders.

In the statue dream, the fourth kingdom was the empire that witnessed the coming of "him whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."22. This fourth kingdom was the Roman empire, the most powerful military and political confederation in antiquity. The Romans were in power when Jesus Christ was born. The Romans crucified our Lord, and witnessed his resurrection. Following the ascension of Christ and the birth of the Christian church, the Roman empire completely obliterated the nation of Israel.

This identification means the four kingdoms of the statue dream provided a countdown to the first appearance of Jesus Christ. The four statue kingdoms also provides us with a countdown to the destruction of God's Old covenant people. Conversely, instead of being simply a reiteration of those four kingdoms, the four beast visions represent four different kingdoms that begin their chronology about 2,000 years later. These four kingdoms provide us with a prophetic countdown to the resurrection of God's Old Covenant people. This occurred in 1948 when the Jewish people were re-gathered in their historic land and formed the modern nation/state of Israel.

Following this line of interpretation, because the first four statue kingdoms were all manifested sequentially before the destruction of ancient Israel, the four beast kingdoms must all have been sequentially manifested before national Israel was resurrected as a modern state. The fourth kingdom should have been established shortly before the founding of the nation of Israel, and obviously, the first three must precede the fourth. This establishes a rather narrow time frame within which we may identify the fourth and final kingdom of planet Earth.

Adolph Hitler, the leader of the third beast kingdom of Daniel's prophecy, committed suicide on May 1, 1945 and Nazi Germany surrendered a week later. Shortly thereafter the allied powers installed the four generals to administer post-war Germany. Since Israel became a nation in 1948, it follows that the fourth and final world kingdom must have been established within those two dates -- 1945 to 1948.

Another factor important to the identification is the requirement that this fourth kingdom must have the same thing in common with all the other kingdoms mentioned: a significant interaction with the Jews. These two requirements, the narrow time frame, and the necessary interaction with the Jewish people, preclude the popular notion that the fourth kingdom is the so-called 'Revived Roman Empire,' as personified by The European Community (EC).

The European Community, and its predecessor organization The European Common Market, developed as a result of The Treaty of Rome. This treaty was signed in 1957, and accordingly, does not fit within the appropriate time frame. Further, the EC has had virtually no historic role whatsoever in terms of a significant impact on events in national Israel.

Because the fourth kingdom is the empire that catapults The Antichrist to power, our identification requires a global perspective. Every verse in The Bible implies he is a global figure. The text does say "...he causes ALL to receive a mark...."23. The word all would appear to imply far more than Europeans. Indeed a quick bit of research in practically any Encyclopedia will find the European Community listed under regional organizations. Yet, to this day, the vast majority of prophecy teachers confidently and categorically state that the European Community is the final empire that will host The Antichrist.

There is only one global political entity of a lasting consequence in the world today. It was founded between 1945 and 1948. It has claimed absolute authority in establishing jurisdiction over the historic land called Palestine. Its power and political reach is now reaching overwhelming proportions as its members include virtually every government on the face of the Earth. The United Nations IS the prophesied one world government so frequently mentioned in the Bible.

Through international treaty, the UN is now determining how nations educate their children. The UN is forcibly intervening in international military conflicts. The UN is overseeing the world's financial systems as well as all legal matters involving disputes among nations. These are not activities that are scheduled to occur next year or next century -- The United Nations is running the world NOW.

In spite of the common perception that The UN is a benevolent organization seeking to guarantee peace and safety, the prophet Daniel gives us the most accurate description of the last government of a Christ rejecting world.
"After this I saw in the night visions, and, behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly, and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped the residue with its feet; and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns."24.

With this world government now in power, we can be certain that Jesus Christ will soon return. We can also be certain that we are about to witness the emergence of The Antichrist, for the Apostle Paul warns us that the return of Christ, characterized in Thessalonians as The Day Of The Lord, "...shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."25.

It's time to throw away what you've been told and study this for yourself. The Beast isn't coming to power in some 'Revived Roman Empire" in Europe. He's here in America -- NOW. He will take advantage of every man, woman, and child that fails to recognize the truth that Jesus Christ repeatedly warned us about.

The Apostle Paul wrote that the emergence of the one world government headed by "the man of sin" (the Antichrist) would be preceded by a counterfeit gospel. Jesus said "take heed that no man deceive you for many will come in my name."26.

The deception is upon us, and time is running out. The spiritual trap is about to spring shut and most of the world will fall in it. Leaders that you consider to be Christian may be among them, and they want you to follow them to their unpleasant fate.

Turn to Jesus while you still can.

FOOTNOTES:
1. Daniel 7:5
2. Daniel 7:7
3. Daniel 7:17
4. The Scofield Reference Bible, The Zondervan Study Bible, etc. The Bible publisher's practice of adding to the scriptures with
conjectural interpretations that are described as fact, not theory, is a contributing factor to a continuing blindness to true
prophetic understanding. All will be held accountable on the last day.
5. Daniel 138
6. Daniel 8:21
7. Daniel 8:22
8. Daniel 7:4
9. The Lives Of The Kings and Queens Of England, Antonia Fraser, page 27
10. Daniel 7:4
11. Daniel 7:5
12. ibid.
13. Shadows Of His Coming. William Juring,
14. Daniel 7:6
15. Encyclopedia Americana, 1954, Volume 17, page 268
16. Encyclopedia Americana, 1954, Volume l2, page 524
17. Encyclopedia Americana, 1954, Volume 29, page 55
18. Encyclopedia Americana, 1954, Volume 12, page 53
19. ibid., page 538
20. ibid.
21. Daniel 8:8
22. Micah 5:2
23. Revelation 13:16
24. Daniel 7:7
25. II Thessalonians 2:3
26. Matthew 24:4, 5"

Source: http://www.christianmedianetwork.com/lastdays2.html

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:31 pm
by Iggy
i may be the dumbest guy here on the subject... but nowhere that ive seen does it say anything about the antichrist coming to power. there are many anti(against)-christs all over the world... i call em, athiests (and the japanesse since they dont believe in God at all)!

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:34 pm
by Zander
Iggy wrote:i may be the dumbest guy here on the subject... but nowhere that ive seen does it say anything about the antichrist coming to power. there are many anti(against)-christs all over the world... i call em, athiests (and the japanesse since they dont believe in God at all)!
I wouldn't call atheists anti-Christs since they don't believe in him I belive antichrist means someone who believes in Christ but opposes him (satanists).

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:50 pm
by Iggy
even non religious people know who he is...

what's easier, to speak againt christ or to say he didnt exist at all.

AntiChrist

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:46 am
by bluesman
I believe that both the UN and the EC are to play a big role in the end days.

I also believe that the bible talks of anti-christs as in many anti-christs.
That being people who speak-out against Christ or teach that he is not divine or that he didn't exist. Just not atheist, but atheist that speak against the true Jesus.

Now I believe that the bible does talk about The Anti-Christ of the end times.
It a part of the bible that many find very interesting , but is also so difficult to understand.

Just be ready for the rapture when (and if ?) it occurs.

Mike
Bluesman

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:46 am
by Canuckster1127
Purely,

I assume what you posted was verbattim from Irvin Baxter. You did use quote marks. It really would be helpful if you linked or referrenced your source.

Bottom line. The application of this passage into contemporary times is entirely arbitrary and violates several rules of hermeneutics.

First, it entirely ignores the historical context of the passage in terms of the original human author and human audience in which it was written.

Unless you suscribe to a mechanical view of inspiration to where in fact the author of Daniel was simply a scribe whom God filled and obliterated of all thought, input and influence, then you cannot divorce a text from its context in this manner without some serious questions being risen.

To name a few:

1. On what basis do you select which passages to treat in this manner and which ones not to?

2. On what basis do you determine what time frame to apply prophetic passages? If the day of it's delivery, the person writing and the people receiving the text are not relevent to the original people involved, on what basis do you make today and us the object? Can you provide a textual basis in the text itself to do this? If not, (and clearly it is not) then what you are doing is called "eisogesis" which is superimposing onto the text an outside means of interpretation and no longer allowing the text to speak for itself.

3. On what basis do you select whose interpretation to use in this manner as better than anyone elses? It's no coincidence to me that you appeal to Irvin Baxter in this role. Is Irvin Baxter infallible? Is Irvin Baxter inspired? Has Irvin Baxter, in his entire life, given an interpretation of Scripture in this regard that has proven wrong when observing actual world events? How does Irvin Baxter justify his activities when held to the standards of an Old Testement Prophet (perfection by the way) or when taking into account the admonition of Christ, that "No man knows the hour..."

4. Does Irvin Baxter personally profit from the sale and noteriety of his interpretations and teachings? Does Irvin Baxter admit when he's wrong? When circumstances change is there an immediate change in teaching to adapt to change? What does that say in terms of Irvin Baxter's special role as assumed as the authority in terms of Biblical Prophecy.

5. What does all this say in terms of New Testament admonitions to avoid elevating personalities over Christ and His word?

I Cor 3:1-23

I'm backing off my previously conciliatory language with regard to Baxter. Based on what you have put up and my further consideration, I think there are some serious issues at work here and these are questions that demand answers.

Make sure your answers come from Scripture please and then make sure they explain the basis for elevating Baxter's interpretation above anyone else's. He in effect has made himself master over the Bible itself by claiming special understanding to the exclusion of others and in fact the text itself in this area.

I think Baxter may in fact be mentioned in the Bible.

II Tim 4:1-4

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:12 pm
by purelyironic
I did post the source at the bottom of the article and i even explained that was not irvin Baxters writting in the post above it.

I found a random article on google where another person just happened to discover the same concept.

Source: http://www.christianmedianetwork.com/lastdays2.html

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:51 pm
by Canuckster1127
purelyironic wrote:I did post the source at the bottom of the article and i even explained that was not irvin Baxters writting in the post above it.

I found a random article on google where another person just happened to discover the same concept.

Source: http://www.christianmedianetwork.com/lastdays2.html
OK. I apologize for the mistatement with regard to source presented.

That having been said, I've done some research on Christian Media Network and James Lloyd and what I find is most disturbing in terms of the conflict with other ministries, personal history and sense of being a modern day prophet.

I stand by my concerns in terms of false teaching and I hope that you are looking carefully at the source of what you are promoting.

Billy Graham is called a False Teacher by this person and organization.

:lol: :lol: