Evidence for God from Science

jenwat3 wrote:

zoegirl wrote:I think a lot has to do with Rennaisance paintings and tradition....

Ack, save me! more tradition! Zoe, I love you!

Hey, not agreeing with it, but I'm sure we are all familair with the paintings:-)

zoegirl wrote:

jenwat3 wrote:

zoegirl wrote:I think a lot has to do with Rennaisance paintings and tradition....

Ack, save me! more tradition! Zoe, I love you!

Hey, not agreeing with it, but I'm sure we are all familair with the paintings:-)

Sadly, you're right. I guess it really not important what He looked like, though.

I do think it had to do with hygiene during the times as it does today. Lice in particular and a persons personal bathing habits. Although the wealthy of the time could bath frequently if they chose to do so the commoner didn't have that luxury. Most military folks that had to live in close quarters keep there hair short as they still do today to avoid lice infestation, to wear protective headgear and make people look similar (uniformed). Today it pretty much has to do with personal preference. A good example would be that if you keep your hair washed everyday, brushed and groomed no problem. On the other hand if you were out in the hot sun all day and in dusty conditions or your work environment was such that it wasn't proper, distracting or uncomfortable common sense would tell you to keep it short. A lot of the customs that came out of the old testament had to do with health issues of the time. Most of it just boils down to commen sense. We have the same if not more do's and don'ts then they had back then especially in the area of food preparation just one example. Pork preparation is a good example. Today if you don't cook it to the proper temperature it still will make you sick. Turkey and chicken the same way. It was believed back then it was just in the way it was slaughtered and pork was off limits period. Today we have rules and regulations from the raising, to slaughter and preperation for consumption. When those rules are not followed people still get very sick.

Actually for the pork thing, it is still off-limits today. It was never mentioned in the bible that turkey and chicken were off-limits, put pork was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that you should not eat. And as for long hair, it was also mentioned that women have long hair, men short. I don't think this was a cleanliness issue, since if it was, would not the women have short hair also? Were not the conditions the same for men and women the same back then? And on the food thing again, there are alot of issues surrounding the consumption of animals that still pertain today, regardless of how they are raised.

Trichinosis, also called trichinellosis, or trichiniasis, is a parasitic disease caused by eating raw or undercooked pork and wild game infected with the larvae of a species of roundworm Trichinella spiralis, commonly called the trichina worm. The few cases in the United States are mostly the result of eating undercooked game, bear meat, or home reared pigs. It is most common in the developing world and where pigs are commonly fed raw garbage.

Trichinosis initially involves the intestines. Within 1-2 days of contagion, manifestations such as nausea, heartburn, dyspepsia, and diarrhea; the severity of symptoms depends on the number of worms ingested. Later on, as the worms encyst in different parts of the human body, other manifestations may occur, such as headache, fever, chills, cough, eye swelling, joint pain and muscle pain, petechiae, and itching.

Most symptoms subside within a few months. The most dangerous case is worms entering the central nervous system. They cannot survive there, but they may cause enough damage to produce serious neurological deficits (such as ataxia or respiratory paralysis), and even death. Infestation of the heart may also lead to death.

Now this was not known to medical science until 1835 and around 1845 they finally pinned it down to under cooked pork or wild game meats.

So as the Bible was inspired by G-d. He made sure that written in the law that "you shall not eat of the cloven hoof or unclean animal". I do think that it was a very good idea on His part to include this and protect those people back then.

Hebrew women back then if married were not allowed to show their hair and either had to keep it covered or wear a wig as they still do today. So the may have it keep short also. Most Egyptians shaved their heads and wore wigs or ornate headgear.Yes pork was a no no but the reference I was making to both turkey and chicken was in the way it is slaughtered (Kosher) if you are of the Jewish faith. All slaughter houses in the U.S are to operate under very strict guidlines (U.S.D.A. Rules) for the majority of us. Preparation and storage was what I was getting at with fowl. If it is not washed ( to include areas in which it is prepared) and cooked correctly it will make those who consume it very ill. On the pork thing again the pig or hog was considered unclean and of the cloven hoof. The meat would contain worm larvae (cyst) and if not cooked to an internal temp of at least 160 degress the cyst could be ingested and cause trichinosis which is a communicable disease and can cause death.

Yes, you made some very good points. However this isn't a matter of cleanliness, or how they are slaughtered. For example did you know the pig has a drainage duct right above its hoof that helps to drain all the poisons and toxins from its body? If for some reason this duct gets clogged then all the poisons "back up", and stay in its flesh. Also, it only takes about 5 hours or so for all the slop a pig eats to turn into flesh. For a cow it takes around 2 days. The pig does not have the "purification" process that the cow does. It is more than simply parasites than we are ingesting when we eat pork. And that's only one instance. God made these animals (pigs, lobster,shrimp, shellfish, etc,) to be scavengers, and to clean up leftovers from the earth and the oceans. He did not make them for our consumption.

Good point. Can you provide a link so I may read up on the duct? How about a catfish and crab?

Actually, I don't have a link about the duct. I remember reading it somewhere, I'll try to find it again. And catfish and crab are both scavengers, so they are unclean animals. There is a verse that specifies clean and unclean animals. I think it is Leviticus. I'll try to find it.

Okay Jen I need your help with this please. I happened to be lookng for some answers and came upon this post by a lady named Rosa. Let me know what you think or anyone else feel free to jump in. I thought this post was interesting to say the least.

Rosa referring to a different poster;

You wrote: "From the teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad the main religion of the world, there are some similarities. One similarity that is outstandingly clear is the prohibition of consuming the meat of swine or PORK"

In your very first paragraph, you made a serious mistake. You stated that pork was prohibited in the teachings of Jesus. It was not! When your thesis statement is incorrect, your conclusions drawn from that statement, will be wrong!

When Jesus came he fulfilled the Old Covenant...that is what the Messiah was to do.

MATTHEW 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

A covenant is kind of like a contract. When someone fulfills their end of the contract, a person is no longer required to pay them the wages which were part of the contract. Therefore, when Jesus said he was to fulfill the old covenant, it meant the people were no longer bound by the hundreds of rules and regulations from the old covenant.

Here is where we see Jesus explaining that the food we consume is not what makes us defiled. It is not what goes into the mouth that can defile a person, but rather what comes out of his mouth can defile him.

Mark 7:14-23 And he called the people to him again, and said to them, "Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man."

Jesus not only fulfilled the Old Covenant, but He began a New Covenant.

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

This New Covenant did not include the hundreds of laws from the Old Covenant. Those who followed Jesus and heard His voice understood what this meant, but occasionally, God had to spell it out to them.

Acts 11:4-9 But Peter began and explained to them in order: "I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, something descending, like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came down to me. Looking at it closely I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. And I heard a voice saying to me, 'Rise, Peter; kill and eat.' But I said, 'No, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' But the voice answered a second time from heaven, 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.'

Up until that point, Peter had still been keeping the Old Law, but God told him that was no longer necessary.

When Mohammed came along, he wrote up new laws, but where did he say, as Jesus did, that he was fulfilling the new covenant and beginning yet another new covenant? Otherwise, why would people be bound by something that is not in the covenant/contract? Anyone can write laws and bind people to uphold them...most leaders do.

Rosa

nice

Ok, let me clarify these points for you. In Acts 11:4-9, Peter later realized that God was not actually talking about food being clean. In order to better understand this verse, read Acts 10:17-28. In verse 28, Peter states " You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any MAN common or unclean". Clearly here, this was not a reference to food. In Mark 7:14-23, you should actually start at v.5. Jesus was not talking about food here, but about the fact that the Pharisees were complaining about the disciples eating food without washing their hands. And as far as Jesus coming to make a new covenant, that is true. HOWEVER, He plainly states in Matt.5:17 that He did not come do do away with the law, but to fulfill it. The fact that He did not destroy it means that it is still in effect today. Hope this helps some.

Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee, Roman Citizen, Jew and was to later be known as Paul the Apostle or St. Paul the Apostle. Reading of his history will shed some light on this conversation of the "Old Law". I didn't mean for this conversation to take the twist it has but it is worth discussing. He experiences a vision from the resururrected Jesus and asserts he is given the Gospel not by a man but from " the revelation of Jesus Christ". This takes us back to Moses when he is given "The Law" by G-d. During Pauls time there was a great famine going on in there world so this can also be attributed to why the clean and unclean could have been modified. Also remember that Paul was given the credit for converting Gentiles in which he and Peter would have words. They were both crucified upside down and depending where it is written it is said on the same day and some reference it to the same year. I have written a local Catholic Priest on the subject and when I get his opinion I will post it here.

Here is another good reading which I found on Google. Bottom line is do Christains accept and follow "Kosher Food Laws" in their doctrine?


from: Benjammin-ga 06/06/2002;

In the New Testament, St. Paul's main message about the Old Testament
Law is that Law is sin. It is impossible for us to keep to all the 613
Mosaic Laws and so inevitably we sin. Therefore, Paul says, we must do
away with the written law and instead the law must come from our
hearts. He says that it doesn't matter what you eat, as long as you
have faith in God. There's nothing wrong with keeping the kosher food
laws, but it is not necessary. If you feel guilty eating pork, then
don't do it, because that is a sin. But if you do not feel guilty, and
this was true for the Gentiles who Paul was preaching too, it does not
matter what you eat.

This sentiment is backed up by Jesus in Matthew's Gospel (New
International Version)

Matthew 15:10-11
"Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What
goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes
out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " "

And again in Matthew 15:16-20
""Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. "Don't you see that
whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the
body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart,
and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil
thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony,
slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed
hands does not make him 'unclean.' " "

Both Jesus and Paul said that it did not matter what you ate which
included pork. As has been said before, the Old Testament clearly
states that pork is forbidden under the kosher laws which is why some
Jewish people do not eat pork. Christian doctrine however, does not
accept kosher food laws for the reasons noted above.

One thing you must understand is that in the Old Testament it was Jesus who created the heavens and the earth, who made the Sabbath, and who also made the animals "clean and unclean". At no point in time would He say "i made these animals unclean in the Old Testament, but since these are new times, they are now clean."

jenwat3 wrote:One thing you must understand is that in the Old Testament it was Jesus who created the heavens and the earth, who made the Sabbath, and who also made the animals "clean and unclean". At no point in time would He say "i made these animals unclean in the Old Testament, but since these are new times, they are now clean."

Very well understood but from the time of His birth, through His life, through His death and resurrection a whole lot more changed then just "The Law" and the written word of the Old Testament. Through Jesus Christ all was changed and is found every where in the New Testament.