Why can't I believe in this?

[caine]

Welcome aboard,

I used to be an Atheist many years ago. The reason why I was of that persuasion was due to several reasons. One was my perspective of religious hypocrisy. I viewed Christians as dimwitted unenlightened tyrants who believed in a cruel, unjust, and mean god who delighted in making whatever was fun, joyful, and happy into calamity and woe to teach archaic lessons of humble bleated self-effacing misery.

I fought Christians in arguments by use of ideas and logic. I was very good at bashing Christians and any religion and winning each debate. I could walk circles around people of faith. No one could convince me that God existed. I adhered to the notion of natural law – or nature’s god which was the rule of physics, order, random probabilities set in motion by an accidental cosmic explosion of gases.

Sounds a little like me.

Then one day, while arguing with my Christian aunt and uncle I was stumped by one question they asked about seeds. They asked me, “where did the first seed came from for the first plant?”

Of course I gave them the chicken and egg argument as well as the basic evolutionary processes answers. My relatives kept answering each of my triads – with a polite question, “Yes but, that still does not tell me where the first seed came from… Its DNA, its structure, its growth…where did the gas come from that exploded and made it all.. where? where?”

If life CAN come to be by chance, then it is almost certain to happen in a universe as huge as this we live in. Life does not contain any matter or parts that cannot be explained by science. If all the required parts exist, what is the chance of life not to form. If there were only one planet it would be big. When there are billions of billions and they exist for billions of years, its near zero. And the gas? Don't try to explain something you dont understand with God. Man has done that for thousands of years, just to find a scientific answer later. Thunder is just one example.

I could never answer that question and where it led too. Each time I tried, I discovered folly within every answer I gave. At the time, I was too proud to admit error but that question dogged me for years.

You might want to reconsider. Believing in God creates even more questions you can't answer. Howerver, now you don't need to understand it anymore. Unexplainable things are just the will of God, right?

Several years later I became a Christian and now debate Atheist, but I’ll spare you that

Go ahead and debate me.

For now, please do not judge true Christianity on the merits of the behavior of some who have zeal but no knowledge, or intelligence. Likewise, do not reject it on grounds of logic and science. We do have a beginning, a purpose for being here, and an end.

I judge true Christinity on the Bible. And yes, we do have a beginning, a purpose for being here, and an end. Birth, multiply, death.

If not, why are we here?

Why would God be here?

What purpose for life, (... could there be)

None. What purpose for God could there be?

(What purpose for...) morality, good, and evil could there be?

Morality is not the same for everyone. It is influenced by culture, religion and personal opinions and beliefs. Good is what promotes life, and makes it easier and more pleasant. Evil is the opposite of that. It is human ideas, nothing more.

Inside us all is a knowing, or sense, that there is something out there that is bigger than humanity, who made it all with a design, a plan, and a purpose.

I am sorry, but I lack that knowing or sense. There might very well be something out there that is bigger than humanity. It would be strange if there were not life on other planets. I don't need a design, a plan or a purpose. Neither do ANY other animal on this planet. Why do you? You feel useless and worthless without that?

Problem is can we accept it? Can you?

Yep

You are maybe struggling with just this acceptance now. Seeing others actions and misguided zeal has turned you off. Learning form school and lessons from life have may have confused you and created doubts about
God.

Any sane person doubts God. He also doubts any other theory presented to him. Like evolution. However, your intelligence and logic makes you decide what to believe in. I cannot believe in the omnipotent God described in the Bible. There could be one out there, but it's certainly not him.

But, something is drawing you – seeking, yet you may not know what it is.

Curiosity is a good bet.

Let me close with this: You do have a purpose here far greater than procreation and survival of the species. Christianity is the journey and discovery of that purpose that became lost to us from the passage of eons of time. Do you want that purpose restored? Revealed? Only one God can grant you that. Only one savior can save us from ourselves and give meaning back to our lives. Only one Spirit can restore life back into you soul.

You state this as if it is a fact. It's not. You believe in it. Thats it.

All I ask – is for you to pray this simple prayer…

“Dear God, Lord Most High! I am dumb as a post and know nothing. I am tired of living my life and making things all ugly around me. I ask you to forgive me and make me whole. Teach me, instruct me, guide me and never let me go. Dear Lord Jesus Christ, I am not even sure you are here so please I need your Spirit of life blown inside me; please do this for me. I do not understand what this all means. I do not understand why those nails tore your wrist causing your bones to pull apart for me. What reason was this for? I do not understand, but please teach me. Dear Jesus, teach me the way I should go. Help me to know more about you. Make me born again from above by the breath of Your Spirit and understand thee completely. Amen.”
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I think I'll pass.

[B. W.]

Welcome aboard,

I used to be an Atheist many years ago. The reason why I was of that persuasion was due to several reasons. One was my perspective of religious hypocrisy. I viewed Christians as dimwitted unenlightened tyrants who believed in a cruel, unjust, and mean god who delighted in making whatever was fun, joyful, and happy into calamity and woe to teach archaic lessons of humble bleated self-effacing misery.

I fought Christians in arguments by use of ideas and logic. I was very good at bashing Christians and any religion and winning each debate. I could walk circles around people of faith. No one could convince me that God existed. I adhered to the notion of natural law — or nature's god which was the rule of physics, order, random probabilities set in motion by an accidental cosmic explosion of gases.

Sounds a little like me.

Then one day, while arguing with my Christian aunt and uncle I was stumped by one question they asked about seeds. They asked me, “where did the first seed came from for the first plant?”

Of course I gave them the chicken and egg argument as well as the basic evolutionary processes answers. My relatives kept answering each of my triads — with a polite question, “Yes but, that still does not tell me where the first seed came from… Its DNA, its structure, its growth…where did the gas come from that exploded and made it all.. where? where?”

If life CAN come to be by chance, then it is almost certain to happen in a universe as huge as this we live in. Life does not contain any matter or parts that cannot be explained by science. If all the required parts exist, what is the chance of life not to form. If there were only one planet it would be big. When there are billions of billions and they exist for billions of years, its near zero. And the gas? Don't try to explain something you dont understand with God. Man has done that for thousands of years, just to find a scientific answer later. Thunder is just one example.

I could never answer that question and where it led too. Each time I tried, I discovered folly within every answer I gave. At the time, I was too proud to admit error but that question dogged me for years.

You might want to reconsider. Believing in God creates even more questions you can't answer. Howerver, now you don't need to understand it anymore. Unexplainable things are just the will of God, right?

Several years later I became a Christian and now debate Atheist, but I'll spare you that

Go ahead and debate me.

For now, please do not judge true Christianity on the merits of the behavior of some who have zeal but no knowledge, or intelligence. Likewise, do not reject it on grounds of logic and science. We do have a beginning, a purpose for being here, and an end.

I judge true Christinity on the Bible. And yes, we do have a beginning, a purpose for being here, and an end. Birth, multiply, death.

If not, why are we here?

Why would God be here?

What purpose for life, (... could there be)

None. What purpose for God could there be?

(What purpose for...) morality, good, and evil could there be?

Morality is not the same for everyone. It is influenced by culture, religion and personal opinions and beliefs. Good is what promotes life, and makes it easier and more pleasant. Evil is the opposite of that. It is human ideas, nothing more.

Inside us all is a knowing, or sense, that there is something out there that is bigger than humanity, who made it all with a design, a plan, and a purpose.

I am sorry, but I lack that knowing or sense. There might very well be something out there that is bigger than humanity. It would be strange if there were not life on other planets. I don't need a design, a plan or a purpose. Neither do ANY other animal on this planet. Why do you? You feel useless and worthless without that?

Problem is can we accept it? Can you?

Yep

You are maybe struggling with just this acceptance now. Seeing others actions and misguided zeal has turned you off. Learning form school and lessons from life have may have confused you and created doubts about
God.

Any sane person doubts God. He also doubts any other theory presented to him. Like evolution. However, your intelligence and logic makes you decide what to believe in. I cannot believe in the omnipotent God described in the Bible. There could be one out there, but it's certainly not him.

But, something is drawing you — seeking, yet you may not know what it is.

Curiosity is a good bet.

Let me close with this: You do have a purpose here far greater than procreation and survival of the species. Christianity is the journey and discovery of that purpose that became lost to us from the passage of eons of time. Do you want that purpose restored? Revealed? Only one God can grant you that. Only one savior can save us from ourselves and give meaning back to our lives. Only one Spirit can restore life back into you soul.

You state this as if it is a fact. It's not. You believe in it. Thats it.

All I ask — is for you to pray this simple prayer…

“Dear God, Lord Most High! I am dumb as a post and know nothing. I am tired of living my life and making things all ugly around me. I ask you to forgive me and make me whole. Teach me, instruct me, guide me and never let me go. Dear Lord Jesus Christ, I am not even sure you are here so please I need your Spirit of life blown inside me; please do this for me. I do not understand what this all means. I do not understand why those nails tore your wrist causing your bones to pull apart for me. What reason was this for? I do not understand, but please teach me. Dear Jesus, teach me the way I should go. Help me to know more about you. Make me born again from above by the breath of Your Spirit and understand thee completely. Amen.”
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I think I'll pass.

Welcome aboard Caine,

I thought this thread was locked by admin? If not, maybe we can debate.

Remember, we cannot force you to believe in anything, only discuss and reason. So, let's begin:

What is it that makes you an Atheist? What was the cause and reason for this?
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[caine]

Welcome aboard Caine,

Thank you champ.

I thought this thread was locked by admin? If not, maybe we can debate.

That would be strange since I posted in it

Remember, we cannot force you to believe in anything, only discuss and reason. So, let's begin:

What is it that makes you an Atheist? What was the cause and reason for this?
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We can try. You must excuse me. English is not my main language, and I find it hard sometimes to debate something this complex. I cannot always find the right words.

Anyways, I was born into a not very religious family. Though we are all, including me, member of the church (I gotta change that, btw), I have never really been raised as a christian. I have been confirmed though (do you say that in english?).

Since I was about 10, I have been reading alot of science magazines, and have always been fascinated by evolution. It is, imho, such a beautiful theory. It is so perfect, and so brilliant, that even if there was a God, I am sure he would have created life in a way that allows it to evolve. Now, I know that evolution contradicts with the bible, as it clearly tells us that we are created as we are. This however, does not match with findings of older human remains, that have a different anatomy than us. Evolution works so well, that we human even use it to develop Artificial Life (for the fun of it, I guess) and computer chips.

Secondly, I do not think an omnipotent God would act in the ways descriped in the Bible. He would not tell us what to eat and not to eat. How to behave and how to live our lives. He would not punish us in all eternity for a "sin" like homosexuality. He would not use a 2000 year old book to spread his word. An omnipotent god also creates alot of paradoxes. How can he regret something he has done? Can he make a stone too heavy for him to move? A wall he cannot tear down? He also does not explain anything. If God can exist without a reason, why can't the universe and life?

I started reading the Bible a few weeks ago, and have been talking with the same two religious fanatics from Jehowah's Witnesses once each week, the past 9 weeks. Simply in order to understand how you can believe in the Bible. I know they do not agree with Christians on everything, but they do have a pretty good knowledge of the Bible. They have, however, failed in convincing me that we are created by a God that care. In fact, by reading the "holy text", I have become even more certain that no such thing exists.

If the Bible is the words of God, why doesn't it contain facts instead of being written in a way that can be read several ways? It should mention the Big Bang. It should mention evolution.

Another thing that makes me doubt Christianity is the sheer amount of other religions. Some of them older. Why would the Bible be the right text?

In short, I just cannot believe in a personal God. If the Bible was written today, no one would believe it. It is only because so many people have been influenced by it already, when science could not sufficiently explain our world, that people still believe in it. Because churches have already been build, and alot of people are raised to trust in the words of God. IMHO, religion belongs to the past. Science, is the future. Sure, their might be a creator. But he is not the Christian God. Nor any other of the described Gods. We have, I think, still not met him.

[B. W.]

Welcome aboard Caine,

Thank you champ.

I thought this thread was locked by admin? If not, maybe we can debate.

That would be strange since I posted in it

Remember, we cannot force you to believe in anything, only discuss and reason. So, let's begin:

What is it that makes you an Atheist? What was the cause and reason for this?
-
-
-

We can try. You must excuse me. English is not my main language, and I find it hard sometimes to debate something this complex. I cannot always find the right words.

Anyways, I was born into a not very religious family. Though we are all, including me, member of the church (I gotta change that, btw), I have never really been raised as a christian. I have been confirmed though (do you say that in english?).

Since I was about 10, I have been reading alot of science magazines, and have always been fascinated by evolution. It is, imho, such a beautiful theory. It is so perfect, and so brilliant, that even if there was a God, I am sure he would have created life in a way that allows it to evolve. Now, I know that evolution contradicts with the bible, as it clearly tells us that we are created as we are. This however, does not match with findings of older human remains, that have a different anatomy than us. Evolution works so well, that we human even use it to develop Artificial Life (for the fun of it, I guess) and computer chips.

Secondly, I do not think an omnipotent God would act in the ways descriped in the Bible. He would not tell us what to eat and not to eat. How to behave and how to live our lives. He would not punish us in all eternity for a "sin" like homosexuality. He would not use a 2000 year old book to spread his word. An omnipotent god also creates alot of paradoxes. How can he regret something he has done? Can he make a stone too heavy for him to move? A wall he cannot tear down? He also does not explain anything. If God can exist without a reason, why can't the universe and life?

I started reading the Bible a few weeks ago, and have been talking with the same two religious fanatics from Jehowah's Witnesses once each week, the past 9 weeks. Simply in order to understand how you can believe in the Bible. I know they do not agree with Christians on everything, but they do have a pretty good knowledge of the Bible. They have, however, failed in convincing me that we are created by a God that care. In fact, by reading the "holy text", I have become even more certain that no such thing exists.

If the Bible is the words of God, why doesn't it contain facts instead of being written in a way that can be read several ways? It should mention the Big Bang. It should mention evolution.

Another thing that makes me doubt Christianity is the sheer amount of other religions. Some of them older. Why would the Bible be the right text?

In short, I just cannot believe in a personal God. If the Bible was written today, no one would believe it. It is only because so many people have been influenced by it already, when science could not sufficiently explain our world, that people still believe in it. Because churches have already been build, and alot of people are raised to trust in the words of God. IMHO, religion belongs to the past. Science, is the future. Sure, their might be a creator. But he is not the Christian God. Nor any other of the described Gods. We have, I think, still not met him.

Caine, I'll get back with you and answer these question one by one this weekend. I need to head on to work. For now, Jehovah's Witnesses do not represent Christianity. You should research them more on this web site and other web sites and see how their beliefs are contrary to what Christians believe.

Next, Christianity does teach that God cares but more on this later when I have time to write.

You became an Atheist for many of the same reasons I had: Science, evolution, questions regarding God's fairness, justice and etc. What I saw about Christians and their behavior, an old book, and on and on. I understand where you are coming from.

As for evolution, I was of the old school on evolution which teaches species evolving into an entire new species. Evolution's new school basically stresses species adapting into their environment and remaining the same species'. Butterfly changing color due to environment, etc…

What school of thought on evolution do you hold? Species adapting to their environment does not contradict creation but the old school does.

Anyways, I need to head off to work. Be back soon.
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[caine]

As for evolution, I was of the old school on evolution which teaches species evolving into an entire new species. Evolutions new school basically stresses species adapting into their environment and remaining the same species. Butterfly changing color due to environment, etc;

What school of thought on evolution do you hold? Species adapting to their environment does not contradict creation but the old school does.

Both. At some point, if a group of animals adapt enough, it will become an entirely different species. Mutation and natural selection happens slowly, but at some point you will cross a line where you are no longer of the old species. If I didn't believe this, I would have to believe that life was formed by a God.

[Canuckster1127]

Both. At some point, if a group of animals adapt enough, it will become an entirely different species. Mutation and natural selection happens slowly, but at some point you will cross a line where you are no longer of the old species. If I didn't believe this, I would have to believe that life was formed by a God.

Do you see, in your own wording above, that you seem to be implying that your own belief system or world view includes belief in elements that cannot be or have not been scientifically proven?

Not stating it is wrong. Just pointing out that even a non-Theist world view include leaps and elements of faith beyond that which is purely empirical and rational.

[caine]

Do you see, in your own wording above, that you seem to be implying that your own belief system or world view includes belief in elements that cannot be or have not been scientifically proven?

Depends. Evolution happens so slowly that we cannot really observe it and prove with say a video recording. However, seeing how plausible (imho) it is, that evolution allows new species to form, I have to believe it. Can't you and I agree that if something changes enough, it will at some point make sense to describe it as something completely different? Like, if the sides of a square slowly starts to bulge out, and continues to do so, it will at some point become a circle. Calling it a circular square is just pointless.

Not stating it is wrong. Just pointing out that even a non-Theist world view include leaps and elements of faith beyond that which is purely empirical and rational.

My biggest concern about the atheistic view of the world is how to justify that Big Bang suddenly happened. Everything else is pretty well covered.

[Canuckster1127]

Evolution is not a do or die issue for me.

Evolution and creationism are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I happen to believe evolution is a viable and proven theory at many levels.

The popular terminology among creationists is to identify it as "microevolution" and "macroevolution" to differentiate in on the observable scale versus the implied that you're speaking of. I think that's a bit of an artificial construct at times although I will use the terminology in some contexts.

I agree that there is pretty convincing evidence genetically, by speciation distribution etc to argue for development and change that may even result in what we call new species. The really big issue for me is the radical differentiation between kind that punctuated equilibrium and other sub-theories demands, and frankly the fossil record is still pretty weak although, there have been some interesting finds as of late.

That will always be a problem of first cause.

I think there is more to consider as well.

Have you read this article on the main page and if so, what do you think of it?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/flew.html

[caine]

Evolution is not a do or die issue for me.

Evolution and creationism are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I happen to believe evolution is a viable and proven theory at many levels.

The popular terminology among creationists is to identify it as "microevolution" and "macroevolution" to differentiate in on the observable scale versus the implied that you're speaking of. I think that's a bit of an artificial construct at times although I will use the terminology in some contexts.

I agree that there is pretty convincing evidence genetically, by speciation distribution etc to argue for development and change that may even result in what we call new species. The really big issue for me is the radical differentiation between kind that punctuated equilibrium and other sub-theories demands, and frankly the fossil record is still pretty weak although, there have been some interesting finds as of late.

That will always be a problem of first cause.

I think there is more to consider as well.

Have you read this article on the main page and if so, what do you think of it?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/flew.html

Well, I read it now

So, an atheist and darwinist changes his mind. It does not surprise me, nor does it influence my beliefs. People change their minds all the time, and in both directions. I could reconsider as well, and become a believer over night. I do not think it will happen, but it is certainly possible.

I really consider myself more of an agnostic than an atheist. I do not rule out intelligent design or a creator. I do however rule out that this God is the Christian one, or the Muslim or one of the Gods of Hinduism. Or any other described Gods for that matter. I do not believe there are rules to live by, or an afterlife. I do not believe in Evil and/or Good. I do not believe in prophets or sinners. If there is a creator, he just created the universe in a way that life could exists. He did not decide what we should look like, or what we should do. There is no way, even if I started to believe in a God, that I would doubt evolution.

[Canuckster1127]

Evolution is not a do or die issue for me.

Evolution and creationism are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I happen to believe evolution is a viable and proven theory at many levels.

The popular terminology among creationists is to identify it as "microevolution" and "macroevolution" to differentiate in on the observable scale versus the implied that you're speaking of. I think that's a bit of an artificial construct at times although I will use the terminology in some contexts.

I agree that there is pretty convincing evidence genetically, by speciation distribution etc to argue for development and change that may even result in what we call new species. The really big issue for me is the radical differentiation between kind that punctuated equilibrium and other sub-theories demands, and frankly the fossil record is still pretty weak although, there have been some interesting finds as of late.

That will always be a problem of first cause.

I think there is more to consider as well.

Have you read this article on the main page and if so, what do you think of it?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/flew.html

Well, I read it now

So, an atheist and darwinist changes his mind. It does not surprise me, nor does it influence my beliefs. People change their minds all the time, and in both directions. I could reconsider as well, and become a believer over night. I do not think it will happen, but it is certainly possible.

I really consider myself more of an agnostic than an atheist. I do not rule out intelligent design or a creator. I do however rule out that this God is the Christian one, or the Muslim or one of the Gods of Hinduism. Or any other described Gods for that matter. I do not believe there are rules to live by, or an afterlife. I do not believe in Evil and/or Good. I do not believe in prophets or sinners. If there is a creator, he just created the universe in a way that life could exists. He did not decide what we should look like, or what we should do. There is no way, even if I started to believe in a God, that I would doubt evolution.

I don't expect you to change your mind based on what another does. I raise it simply to demonstrate that in this case it is more than a passing person; it is one who was at the lead of the academic movement and that there is enough evidence to give raise to such an action, therefore the evidence and thinking is worthy of honest and serious consideration.

[August]

I really consider myself more of an agnostic than an atheist. I do not rule out intelligent design or a creator. I do however rule out that this God is the Christian one, or the Muslim or one of the Gods of Hinduism. Or any other described Gods for that matter. I do not believe there are rules to live by, or an afterlife. I do not believe in Evil and/or Good. I do not believe in prophets or sinners. If there is a creator, he just created the universe in a way that life could exists. He did not decide what we should look like, or what we should do. There is no way, even if I started to believe in a God, that I would doubt evolution.

As an agnostic, what do you believe? That you don't know if there is a god (i.e. have not seen the evidence), or that you can't know if there is a god? You seem to a-priori rule out any type of God, on what basis do you do that? If you do not rule out the concept of a creator, where did you get the creator concept from?

[B. W.]

I really consider myself more of an agnostic than an atheist. I do not rule out intelligent design or a creator. I do however rule out that this God is the Christian one, or the Muslim or one of the Gods of Hinduism. Or any other described Gods for that matter. I do not believe there are rules to live by, or an afterlife. I do not believe in Evil and/or Good. I do not believe in prophets or sinners. If there is a creator, he just created the universe in a way that life could exists. He did not decide what we should look like, or what we should do. There is no way, even if I started to believe in a God, that I would doubt evolution.

From previous comment.... I do not think an omnipotent God would act in the ways described in the Bible. He would not tell us what to eat and not to eat. How to behave and how to live our lives. He would not use a 2000 year old book to spread his word. An omnipotent god also creates a lot of paradoxes. How can he regret something he has done? Can he make a stone too heavy for him to move? A wall he cannot tear down? He also does not explain anything. If God can exist without a reason, why can't the universe and life?

Caine, sorry for my delay responding.

Reading your post and the latest one, here is a question to begin with:

In you opinion, How do you think God should act?
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