Not evryone given same opportunity to do evil/good in life??

[Canuckster1127]

Thx to everyboidy for answering. Its kinda clearer now.
But one thhinng.. i know there - i believe there will be not christtians only in heaven (altgough i dont think we'll remember from this world a single thing but anyway...) - but why then its said often "Christ is the only way to salvation?" Ofcourse if you were born as a hindu, for example then you'll believe hindu is the right religion etc. So unfair if it wouldnt. And bless God for that!
But why then we tend to say Jesus is the only way toward salvation? IS it only for those who KNEW about him and does this leave out those who were in other religions?

There's the rub.

John 14:6 seems to be very clear as to the exclusive claims of Christ in this regard. If people who have never heard can be saved without specifically knowing Jesus Christ but rather are saved based upon the purity of their heart or excellence of their works, then that contradicts all that the Scripture says.

I know some strong Christians who take the early Chapters in Romans to ive indication that there is a path to salvation that can be taken by others who have not heard Christ. I frankly believe the point of that passage is to demonstrate that natural revelation is sufficient so that any condemned apart from Christ in this manner are without excuse. It's an entirely other matter to infer that there is salvation available outside Christ himself.

Calvinist theology simply states that any such are lost, to my knowledge.

Arminianism has a spectrum of sorts on this, but with the concept of universal availability of salvation has to reconcile God's Justice to the distribution of the message.

Universalism for the most part just by passes the need for any universal calling and just jumps to universal salvation for all, or in the very least a non-eternal judgement in hell averted by annihilation.

The bottom line as I see it, is that yes, it is in God's hands. God will not violate His Word in this regard and so in view of the exclusive claims of Christ, any watering down of this in an effort to attribute our evaluation of justice is suspect and carries profound implications throughout soteriology and missiology in particular.

[Byblos]

Thx to everyboidy for answering. Its kinda clearer now.
But one thhinng.. i know there - i believe there will be not christtians only in heaven (altgough i dont think we'll remember from this world a single thing but anyway...) - but why then its said often "Christ is the only way to salvation?" Ofcourse if you were born as a hindu, for example then you'll believe hindu is the right religion etc. So unfair if it wouldnt. And bless God for that!
But why then we tend to say Jesus is the only way toward salvation? IS it only for those who KNEW about him and does this leave out those who were in other religions?

There's the rub.

John 14:6 seems to be very clear as to the exclusive claims of Christ in this regard. If people who have never heard can be saved without specifically knowing Jesus Christ but rather are saved based upon the purity of their heart or excellence of their works, then that contradicts all that the Scripture says.

I know some strong Christians who take the early Chapters in Romans to ive indication that there is a path to salvation that can be taken by others who have not heard Christ. I frankly believe the point of that passage is to demonstrate that natural revelation is sufficient so that any condemned apart from Christ in this manner are without excuse. It's an entirely other matter to infer that there is salvation available outside Christ himself.

Calvinist theology simply states that any such are lost, to my knowledge.

Arminianism has a spectrum of sorts on this, but with the concept of universal availability of salvation has to reconcile God's Justice to the distribution of the message.

Universalism for the most part just by passes the need for any universal calling and just jumps to universal salvation for all, or in the very least a non-eternal judgement in hell averted by annihilation.

The bottom line as I see it, is that yes, it is in God's hands. God will not violate His Word in this regard and so in view of the exclusive claims of Christ, any watering down of this in an effort to attribute our evaluation of justice is suspect and carries profound implications throughout soteriology and missiology in particular.

Here's another take on it that has bothered me for quite some time. Would it not be a little arrogant of us Christians to think that what Jesus meant by him (Christ) being the only way to salvation as opposed to him (God) being the way to salvation? I mean, if Christ is God and we certainly believe that he is, then why could he not, as God, be the way to salvation to non-christians who believe in him? I'm not even sure that makes any sense.

[Canuckster1127]

Thx to everyboidy for answering. Its kinda clearer now.
But one thhinng.. i know there - i believe there will be not christtians only in heaven (altgough i dont think we'll remember from this world a single thing but anyway...) - but why then its said often "Christ is the only way to salvation?" Ofcourse if you were born as a hindu, for example then you'll believe hindu is the right religion etc. So unfair if it wouldnt. And bless God for that!
But why then we tend to say Jesus is the only way toward salvation? IS it only for those who KNEW about him and does this leave out those who were in other religions?

There's the rub.

John 14:6 seems to be very clear as to the exclusive claims of Christ in this regard. If people who have never heard can be saved without specifically knowing Jesus Christ but rather are saved based upon the purity of their heart or excellence of their works, then that contradicts all that the Scripture says.

I know some strong Christians who take the early Chapters in Romans to ive indication that there is a path to salvation that can be taken by others who have not heard Christ. I frankly believe the point of that passage is to demonstrate that natural revelation is sufficient so that any condemned apart from Christ in this manner are without excuse. It's an entirely other matter to infer that there is salvation available outside Christ himself.

Calvinist theology simply states that any such are lost, to my knowledge.

Arminianism has a spectrum of sorts on this, but with the concept of universal availability of salvation has to reconcile God's Justice to the distribution of the message.

Universalism for the most part just by passes the need for any universal calling and just jumps to universal salvation for all, or in the very least a non-eternal judgement in hell averted by annihilation.

The bottom line as I see it, is that yes, it is in God's hands. God will not violate His Word in this regard and so in view of the exclusive claims of Christ, any watering down of this in an effort to attribute our evaluation of justice is suspect and carries profound implications throughout soteriology and missiology in particular.

Here's another take on it that has bothered me for quite some time. Would it not be a little arrogant of us Christians to think that what Jesus meant by him (Christ) being the only way to salvation as opposed to him (God) being the way to salvation? I mean, if Christ is God and we certainly believe that he is, then why could he not, as God, be the way to salvation to non-christians who believe in him? I'm not even sure that makes any sense.

John 3:16

Can you demonstrate a conversion in the Bible where it was not in the Context of Jesus sacrifice and resurrection or tied in the OT system which can be argued as anticipative.

I can think of a few, perhaps. Melchizadek, although there are some who see that as a theophany of Christ Himself.

There's a art of me to be honest that wants to believe that God's mercy and plan extends in this manner. It just seems more fair and just in that regard. This in fact, is an argument used by Atheists to dispense with God's justice and see Him as self-contradicting.

I obviously do not accept that assessment. God's standards and plans are beyond my comprehension and I can embrace mystery and ambiguity. The creation does not judge the creator.

I do wrestle with it, but I believe the scripture is not ambiguous about this.

Acts 4:12

12 There is salvation in none other, for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, by which we must be saved!"

[bluesman]

I think we all need to look at our beliefs about The Great White Throne Judgements.

Now my understanding is this Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever. Now some would say that all are doomed to the "Lake of Fire".
Some disagree. We even disagree on what the "Lake of Fire" means.
"Separation from God", Destruction of the soul, actual burning fire and pain, etc. However, it makes little sense to me to resurect someone to just kill them again. Unless their spirits are now alive in a spirit world called Hades.
Further there is evidence from scripture that judgement/punishments layed out will vary depending on ones works.

I plan and pray to be at the Judgement Seat of Christ with the believers.
Even if my reward is less than most its much better than the alternative.


Michael Thomas

[Gman]

Here is where I get confused... Jesus calls a non-jewish ROMAN centurion (a guy not even allowed in the temple and knows probably nothing about the jewish faith) as having one of the greatests faiths in all of Israel? Luke 7:9.

Go figure...

[Canuckster1127]

Here is where I get confused... Jesus calls a non-jewish ROMAN centurion (a guy not even allowed in the temple and knows probably nothing about the jewish faith) as having one of the greatests faiths in all of Israel? Luke 7:9.

Go figure...

Where were they?

Apparently the context is physically in the land of Israel and not necessarily the nation of Israel.

Also, who was the object of the Centurians faith?

[Gman]

Yeah, it was in Capernaum in Northern Israel. I think the object of his love was Christ (or love).. Perhaps, however, he didn't totally know anything about God either since he helped build a synagogue and loved the nation of Israel, Luke 7:5. I guess you wouldn't do that unless you knew something about God. Perhaps someone was teaching him. But then again many Gentiles in the book of acts seemed to drawn into the Holy Spirit without much resistence or teachings it seems... Acts 11:15-18. I guess you could say that it was the power of the Holy Spirit working... Maybe they had some understanding about Christ before their conversion as well. I'm not sure..


G -

[Gman]

Martin,

I'm sure that there are places in this world that are more hostile than others. That is probably true... I probably won't deny that. As far as how God would judge those who are raised in that kind of environment, I guess God really only knows... God know us probably better than we do.. That is really the only point I was trying to make here. What we might deem as being bad could be good in God's eyes. Look at the disciples of Jesus... A tax collector, fishermen, prostitutes, and sheepherders? Huh? These people weren't priests or anything, just regular guys running around the streets.. Common people with common problems. And they were called THE disciples of GOD? I'm sorry this does not compute... At least in the mind of humans...

G -

[madscientist]

hey thx to everyone helping to asnwer this...
Still scary to imagine that only those who knowa bout Christ will b saved - if that is what the Scripture says.

[FFC]

hey thx to everyone helping to asnwer this...
Still scary to imagine that only those who knowa bout Christ will b saved - if that is what the Scripture says.

Mad, I understand, but don't fear that God can not reach every single person in this world and open their eyes to what his son did for them. God has sent His children to preach the gospel to all the world, but He is not limited by what we do for him. Ultimately it is His Spirit and his doing that reaches all those who earnestly seek him. God is loving and merciful and not willing that any should perish, despite what some will say. People end up in hell because they reject the offer of salvation, not because they never had a chance. To say that, would limit God in so many ways.

[Gman]

That is true FFC... Also God pursues his people too. Matt. 18:12-14.

[bluesman]

God is loving and merciful and not willing that any should perish, despite what some will say. People end up in hell because they reject the offer of salvation, not because they never had a chance.

Therefore, God will somehow make sure everyone has had a FAIR chance to hear the gospel before being judged as rejecting it.
The question is how he is going to do this.

Michael
Thomas

[madscientist]

Thx aeveryone for answering.
But heres still 1 question:
Would everyone go to heaven/hell, had he lived in any part of the world, etc? Probably not. Or are we made so that it doesnt matter where we live, who with, with what charactersistics, personality, etc we'd end up in the same place as we are now?
Probably only God knows answer but what is your opinion on this?

[Gman]

Hi Martin,

I think here are two good links that can explain that pretty well...

http://godandscience.org/apologetics/neverheard.html

http://godandscience.org/apologetics/unfairgod.html

At least in my book,

Take care,

G -

[madscientist]

Thx Gman but i just kinda wanted everyobody's opinions on it. I been on these links but jus asking other people what they think etc
But useful havent read it in a while...