Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:23 pm
B.W.,
You're getting closer. You've moved from your earlier posts of blantant Arminianism to a theological mixture. We need to clarify what you mean when you say “free-minded beings”. Calvinists do not deny that man has a will, nor will we deny that he is free to choose what he wants to choose. The problem is that man is fallen and totally depraved. If left solely to His “free-will”, he will continue in his wicked rebellion against God. Why? Because that is what he wants to do. He is a willing slave to sin, but a slave none the less.
Let's use an extreme example of a drunkard. Does the drunkard have free will? Absolutely. He has a choice of whether or not to drink. No one is forcing him to drink. He freely buys the drink, freely opens it, and freely puts it to his lips and partakes of it. So why is it so hard for a drunkard to stop drinking? Many desire to. Many are well aware of their plight, of how their lives, family, and health have been adversely affected by their addiction. Yet they continue to drink heavily, and do so freely, without compulsion. The problem is that the will of the alcoholic is a slave to his addiction. He drinks, because he can do nothing else. Now God can save the alcoholic, and has done so on numerous occasions. However, the clear majority have stayed in their sins and died that way. Their "free-will" is no advantage to overcoming their sinful nature. If God doesn't miraculously save them, they will never be saved.
Lest we think that our wills are superior to that of the drunkard, we are in the same plight with our own sins. God does not force us to sin. He doesn't have to. If left to our free will, none would ever be saved. Therefore, you are correct in concluding that “Truly, God Violates Free Will”.
Psalm 33:10-11
“The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.”
Of course, we still have to deal with foreknowledge. You continue to suggest, without any scriptural support whatsoever, that “God can control and shape based on foreknowing what a being will do with this free mindedness given as a gift.” I have already dealt with this argument in detail, showing how it robs God of both His omniscience and His omnipotence. I'm looking foreword to your response to my previously cited objections.
At the end of your argument is where the rubber meets the road. You write that “You have a purpose and that is to reflect God's nature and character first to yourself, then to your family, next to friends and neighbors, branching out later to your community, workplace, market, and then to even your own country.” Well, that might be true, but certainly isn't a good place to start in the area of evangelism. God had a purpose for Pharaoh as well, and Pharaoh fulfilled his purpose. (Rick Warren left Pharaoh out of his book. Wonder why?).
Finally, you sum up the “free will” position quite nicely when you conclude that “It begins with you.” That is the problem with your view. It all begins with God. Again, the affects of the fall of man are all but ignored in Arminian Theology. Liberal Theology begins with the false idea that men are, by nature, good. If we just give someone an education, a good job, and a good place to live, they will be good people. That way, we can build Utopia here on earth, one person at a time. (Socialism is built on the same concept). Biblical Calvinism, however, declares the truth about man's estate, that he is not good, but wicked. (This is one of the reason's why I believe the Bible to be inspired by God. Man's writings have a tendency to be much kinder to man.) Arminianism wants both. They want to recognize man's wickedness, yet want to hold that all men have some inherent goodness (faith) in which they can use to get saved, thus making the new birth unnecessary. Arminianism, ultimately, is a man-centered theology, and is doomed to failure, as modern American Christianity can testify.
B.W.,
I realize that this took quite a bit of time and effort on your part. However, I am looking forward to seeing how you deal with my response thread. Now that you are finished with your discourse, I should be finished with my response. Feel free to post here your objections here as time permits.
God Bless,
PL
You're getting closer. You've moved from your earlier posts of blantant Arminianism to a theological mixture. We need to clarify what you mean when you say “free-minded beings”. Calvinists do not deny that man has a will, nor will we deny that he is free to choose what he wants to choose. The problem is that man is fallen and totally depraved. If left solely to His “free-will”, he will continue in his wicked rebellion against God. Why? Because that is what he wants to do. He is a willing slave to sin, but a slave none the less.
Let's use an extreme example of a drunkard. Does the drunkard have free will? Absolutely. He has a choice of whether or not to drink. No one is forcing him to drink. He freely buys the drink, freely opens it, and freely puts it to his lips and partakes of it. So why is it so hard for a drunkard to stop drinking? Many desire to. Many are well aware of their plight, of how their lives, family, and health have been adversely affected by their addiction. Yet they continue to drink heavily, and do so freely, without compulsion. The problem is that the will of the alcoholic is a slave to his addiction. He drinks, because he can do nothing else. Now God can save the alcoholic, and has done so on numerous occasions. However, the clear majority have stayed in their sins and died that way. Their "free-will" is no advantage to overcoming their sinful nature. If God doesn't miraculously save them, they will never be saved.
Lest we think that our wills are superior to that of the drunkard, we are in the same plight with our own sins. God does not force us to sin. He doesn't have to. If left to our free will, none would ever be saved. Therefore, you are correct in concluding that “Truly, God Violates Free Will”.
Psalm 33:10-11
“The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.”
Of course, we still have to deal with foreknowledge. You continue to suggest, without any scriptural support whatsoever, that “God can control and shape based on foreknowing what a being will do with this free mindedness given as a gift.” I have already dealt with this argument in detail, showing how it robs God of both His omniscience and His omnipotence. I'm looking foreword to your response to my previously cited objections.
At the end of your argument is where the rubber meets the road. You write that “You have a purpose and that is to reflect God's nature and character first to yourself, then to your family, next to friends and neighbors, branching out later to your community, workplace, market, and then to even your own country.” Well, that might be true, but certainly isn't a good place to start in the area of evangelism. God had a purpose for Pharaoh as well, and Pharaoh fulfilled his purpose. (Rick Warren left Pharaoh out of his book. Wonder why?).
Finally, you sum up the “free will” position quite nicely when you conclude that “It begins with you.” That is the problem with your view. It all begins with God. Again, the affects of the fall of man are all but ignored in Arminian Theology. Liberal Theology begins with the false idea that men are, by nature, good. If we just give someone an education, a good job, and a good place to live, they will be good people. That way, we can build Utopia here on earth, one person at a time. (Socialism is built on the same concept). Biblical Calvinism, however, declares the truth about man's estate, that he is not good, but wicked. (This is one of the reason's why I believe the Bible to be inspired by God. Man's writings have a tendency to be much kinder to man.) Arminianism wants both. They want to recognize man's wickedness, yet want to hold that all men have some inherent goodness (faith) in which they can use to get saved, thus making the new birth unnecessary. Arminianism, ultimately, is a man-centered theology, and is doomed to failure, as modern American Christianity can testify.
B.W.,
I realize that this took quite a bit of time and effort on your part. However, I am looking forward to seeing how you deal with my response thread. Now that you are finished with your discourse, I should be finished with my response. Feel free to post here your objections here as time permits.
God Bless,
PL