Evidence for God from Science

Light of Life wrote:JESUS WAS TEMPTED, GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED, Wether external or internal it doesn't matter. The fact and point is that he was tempted.

Hi Light of Life, cool screen name by the way.

August's explanation was good as any but let me try a simpler approach (for me the simpler the better).

You say God cannot be tempted, Jesus was tempted, ergo Jesus is not God. Follow me for a second here and you will see it's the complete opposite.

What does it mean that God cannot be tempted (particularly by the devil)? Does it mean that the devil cannot tempt God or does it mean that God will not respond to the devil's temptations? I would say it's the latter and the proof is that God can be tempted by humans. So it's not the action of tempting God that cannot happen, but rather the response to that temptation is the one that cannot occur. The devil is no fool, he knows tempting God is an excercise in futility so he doesn't even try. Ergo, God cannot be tempted by the devil.

Now take it a step further, who gets tempted by the devil? You guessed it, us sappy human beings. We're constantly tempted by the devil and constantly responding to the temptation by falling for it. The devil, of course, knows that and at the same time, wants so bad to tempt God that he saw his chance when God became flesh. The devil saw his moment of glory, to defeat God in the flesh by succeeding in tempting God and having God respond to the temptation by falling for it.

Well, guess what happened? Jesus did not fall for it, did he? If Jesus was an ordinary human being you bet your bottom dollar he would've been tempted and you and I would still be destined for an eternity in fire.

In conclusion, God can't be tempted because the devil knows better. Jesus wasn't tempted because the devil didn't know any better. God can't be tempted and neither could Jesus because he is God incarnate, the Word made flesh.

What you present as proof that Jesus was a mere man turns out to be a very strong case in support of his deity. I thank you for bringing it up.

God Bless,

Byblos.

Light,

Light of Life wrote:YLTYLT

Call me stupid. But where are you going with that. Are you trying to say that Jesus was there in the beginning of time. If so i want to add in verse 35 when it says "For whosoever findeth me findeth Life.." It is talking about you actually being alive. because in Gods eyes when you sin you are dead, therefore if you find Jesus, who is the word of God, then you find life. if you need scripture to back up my statments just ask and you shall receive (smile)

So do you agree that whoever it is that is speaking in all of proverbs 8 is God?

And if you read the WHOLE chapter. You will see in verse 22 that "The Lord possessed me". And yet through the rest of the chapter whoever it is that is speaking is the one that is the Saviour and an undeniable description of the second person the Triune Godhead because he was there from the beginning having never been created. The Lord in verse 22 is the Father.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:


But if the man speaking is God and it is not Jesus, Then who is the Lord who Posessed God in verse 22?

Or possibly... Do you think that Jesus has always existed but he is not God?

light of life wrote:So tell me FCC What is the Glory of God? if you can give me scriptural definition of what it is I will leave.

How's this?

In general God's glory is the perfect harmony of all His attributes into one infinitely beautiful and personal being...Jesus Christ.

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and embodies and demonstrates and reflects all who God is. He is the Lord of Lords and the king od Kings. He received worship, He claimed equality with God. He created the world and all, and I mean all things consist in Him. If that doesn't sound like God then I don't know what does!

You have a right to your opinion. I just don't happen to believe it because there is way too much scripture to contradict it.

Canuckster1127:

Honestly I wish the explanation were that simple. And i thank you for your comment. But once my questions get answered i will have about a 2 page discussion on a wide range of things things that include puting your old flesh away and becoming born from above. Yes, if you are wondering, almost everything i believe goes against the church. Because the church has a tendency to make it too easy for people. They don't tell people that if they are going to get into heaven they are going to have to suffer, and indeed they are. But getting back, Long explanation short, Jesus was suffering because like i said he was putting to death his old man. His flesh wanted to do everything and not have to worry about sin. But he suffered, and through suffering he gained patience, and because he had patience he was able to continue learning form god, and learned obediance. I will go into much greater detail when my questions are answered. Because i want to see if August can answer them and like i said before in the explanation i will give away a good amount of them. So just be patient. If you want just a taste of what it will be like go read Eph.4:17-32 it explains the putting to death your old man.
Here is another taste read this is explains alot about why he suffered and also validates my point about Jesus being tempted by internal/ Flesh things.

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judges righteously:...Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin...' (1 Pet.2.21,21; 4.1)

Do you kinda see now. Maybe i wont have to go into two pages but he was suffering because he was trying to live righeously and free from sin, but that doesn't go easy because your flesh doesn't want to have all these rules and regualations. Therefore you suffer in the flesh becuase you are putting to death your old man. And being renewed of in the spirit... Ok, and when you have acomplished this. Guess what when you have done this and suffered and been patient this is when you are Born again/ born from above/or born in the spirit. So i just gave away one answer. But i didn't want you to be without knowing that.

[quote="Byblos]
What does it mean that God cannot be tempted (particularly by the devil)? Does it mean that the devil cannot tempt God or does it mean that God will not respond to the devil's temptations? I would say it's the latter and the proof is that God can be tempted by humans. So it's not the action of tempting God that cannot happen, but rather the response to that temptation is the one that cannot occur. The devil is no fool, he knows tempting God is an excercise in futility so he doesn't even try. Ergo, God cannot be tempted by the devil.

Now take it a step further, who gets tempted by the devil? You guessed it, us sappy human beings. We're constantly tempted by the devil and constantly responding to the temptation by falling for it. The devil, of course, knows that and at the same time, wants so bad to tempt God that he saw his chance when God became flesh. The devil saw his moment of glory, to defeat God in the flesh by succeeding in tempting God and having God respond to the temptation by falling for it.

Well, guess what happened? Jesus did not fall for it, did he? If Jesus was an ordinary human being you bet your bottom dollar he would've been tempted and you and I would still be destined for an eternity in fire.

In conclusion, God can't be tempted because the devil knows better. Jesus wasn't tempted because the devil didn't know any better. God can't be tempted and neither could Jesus because he is God incarnate, the Word made flesh. [quote]

Alright, well it seems like you have alot of reading to do. If you wish to beleive he was God be my guest. Thats fine.But all i see in your argument is just a bunch of things you personally think. You think that a man cannot stand up to the temptation of the devil. Well i can tell you the devil doens't have to be in your face in order to be tempting you. Because what I also beleive is that you don't think you need to obey the commandments. If you did obey them as I do, you would understand that the Devil can tempt you by simply "getting into your head" and saying why are you reading the bible, just go and watch T.V, go play outside. The reason you give for the devil tempting jesus is also your own thoughts, you say that the devil tempted him because he was god in the flesh and he was weak then. But is it not just as likely that the devil tempted him because he didn't want thousands of people to beleive in God, so that the devil could have a thousand in hell. It can go either way, and the fact that you try to manipulate the word into something it isn't. I find it very interesting that instead of simply agnowledging that Jesus isn't God you go into your bed of wisdom and say that God can only save himself from the reaction of temptation and you are limiting his power. You seem to think that every person is just made to give in to all these things that the devil tempts us with. But rather then give in we are to do what Jesus did. We rebuke the devil with the knowledge we aquire. Its not because we are super-human. Because i can tell you right now everyone here has been tempted by the devil. Me especially if you read my post before you would know that I am in the process of suffering because my flesh/devil doesn't want me to follow the commandments. It wants me to go outside and play but i don't. You can go ahead and believe that man are just filthy sinners saved by grace but don't include me into that. So yuo think Jesus is God. Good for you. You want to believe that Jesus turned his God side and Flesh side off and on like a switch go ahead. But i like to think that every person has the capability to do eveything that Jesus did. Walk on water, rebuke devils, heal people. It is much more inspiring. And all these things which jesus did are called 'Spiritual Gifts' and you get them by obeying the word of God.

"15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. "(Rom.10.12-17)

Believing is obeying. The two words are used synonomysly. And if you are wondering how this fits into my last statment look at verse 17. If you look up that word hear, in the greek it is shamea/shama which is also translated to harken,be obediant, obey. So that faith comes by obediance. Im done for now.

Light of Life wrote:Canuckster1127:

Honestly I wish the explanation were that simple. And i thank you for your comment. But once my questions get answered i will have about a 2 page discussion on a wide range of things things that include puting your old flesh away and becoming born from above. Yes, if you are wondering, almost everything i believe goes against the church. Because the church has a tendency to make it too easy for people. They don't tell people that if they are going to get into heaven they are going to have to suffer, and indeed they are. But getting back, Long explanation short, Jesus was suffering because like i said he was putting to death his old man. His flesh wanted to do everything and not have to worry about sin. But he suffered, and through suffering he gained patience, and because he had patience he was able to continue learning form god, and learned obediance. I will go into much greater detail when my questions are answered. Because i want to see if August can answer them and like i said before in the explanation i will give away a good amount of them. So just be patient. If you want just a taste of what it will be like go read Eph.4:17-32 it explains the putting to death your old man.
Here is another taste read this is explains alot about why he suffered and also validates my point about Jesus being tempted by internal/ Flesh things.

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judges righteously:...Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin...' (1 Pet.2.21,21; 4.1)

Do you kinda see now. Maybe i wont have to go into two pages but he was suffering because he was trying to live righeously and free from sin, but that doesn't go easy because your flesh doesn't want to have all these rules and regualations. Therefore you suffer in the flesh becuase you are putting to death your old man. And being renewed of in the spirit... Ok, and when you have acomplished this. Guess what when you have done this and suffered and been patient this is when you are Born again/ born from above/or born in the spirit. So i just gave away one answer. But i didn't want you to be without knowing that.

Light of life,

You are welcome for the comment. I'm glad you think the hypostatic union is "simple."

You're not introducing anything new to this debate. It raged for a time in the early Church until the council of Nicea where the deity of Christ and the Trinity were established as the formal beliefs of Christianity.

Please take a moment while you're engaging in this dialogue to take a look at the Discussion Guidelines of our board.

Debate and interaction necessitate that you not just submit your thoughts and beliefs but that you also interact and respond directly to the points and supports of the doctrine that stand in opposition to your stated positions.

We exist as a board for discussion with honest seekrs who are seeking to understand an issue. There are other more appropriate sites for those who have already made up their minds and simply want to debate.

CARM is one such site.

That being said, you are welcome to discuss these issues with August and others. I would also suggest you take a look at the main board and other threads present where these issues have been discussed before.

Bart

YLTYLT:

Ok well it is obvious you dont know what the Glory of God is so i will show you. 1 Cor 2:7
"But we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our Glory."

Do you see that the Wisdom of God is used synonomysly with the Glory he gives to us. The glory of God is the Wisdom and knowledge of God.

Ok, first off i am responding to the points in opposition. What i am offering is that someone had the idea that the reason that my theory doesn't work was that jesus was being tempted by outside influence, therefore I gave him an example in which jesus was tempted in his flesh, therefore saying that he was tempted. I am not here to anger anyone. But one thing i will say that angers me is when a persons entire argument relies not on scripture but on their on personal beleifs. I back up what i say with scripture because it makes it more believable. Because it is not me giving the argument therefore but God. I cannot defend doctrines of men. I cannot defend the thought that God is limited in his ability of being tempted. Because these things are not issued in the bible. Of course God is all powerful, which in my mind gives him the power to keep the devil from his presence but thats just me. It doesn't say in the scripture, which is what i defend. I look at the bible with an open heart. And i have given your theories a shot, but it doesn't click. I don't believe that jesus could turn his God side on/off when he pleased. My theory is simple and like i have said a million times IT NEEDS NO INTERPRETAION. God cannot be tempted, and Jesus was tempted. And when you cant say anything in the scripture to prove it you hold on to you belief and say it was Jesus Flesh that was tempted, and that his God side was turned Off. Or else yuo go into great detail about how you think God is limited in power, and how he can only save himself from the response of temptation. Honestly i feel like i am arguing with a little child to give me his toy, because you say you are open minded. But it is so far from that, so that i have to defend every single thing you say. You say i have to respond to the points going against it, well i have , and have given scripture. But the only defence you can give me against Jesus being tempted is personal beleif. I have yet to see a scripture which proves me wrong that Jesus was not tempted.

Light of Life wrote:Ok, first off i am responding to the points in opposition. What i am offering is that someone had the idea that the reason that my theory doesn't work was that jesus was being tempted by outside influence, therefore I gave him an example in which jesus was tempted in his flesh, therefore saying that he was tempted. I am not here to anger anyone. But one thing i will say that angers me is when a persons entire argument relies not on scripture but on their on personal beleifs. I back up what i say with scripture because it makes it more believable. Because it is not me giving the argument therefore but God. I cannot defend doctrines of men. I cannot defend the thought that God is limited in his ability of being tempted. Because these things are not issued in the bible. Of course God is all powerful, which in my mind gives him the power to keep the devil from his presence but thats just me. It doesn't say in the scripture, which is what i defend. I look at the bible with an open heart. And i have given your theories a shot, but it doesn't click. I don't believe that jesus could turn his God side on/off when he pleased. My theory is simple and like i have said a million times IT NEEDS NO INTERPRETAION. God cannot be tempted, and Jesus was tempted. And when you cant say anything in the scripture to prove it you hold on to you belief and say it was Jesus Flesh that was tempted, and that his God side was turned Off. Or else yuo go into great detail about how you think God is limited in power, and how he can only save himself from the response of temptation. Honestly i feel like i am arguing with a little child to give me his toy, because you say you are open minded. But it is so far from that, so that i have to defend every single thing you say. You say i have to respond to the points going against it, well i have , and have given scripture. But the only defence you can give me against Jesus being tempted is personal beleif. I have yet to see a scripture which proves me wrong that Jesus was not tempted.

Heb 4:15-16

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Next question?

Hahaha, You think that proves me wrong. Excuse me but this is hilarious. In Verse 15 it says he was tempted like as we are. That just strengthened my theory. Oh man. Please if you think it proves me wrong explain because i don't see anything

Light of Life wrote:Hahaha, You think that proves me wrong. Excuse me but this is hilarious. In Verse 15 it says he was tempted like as we are. That just strengthened my theory. Oh man. Please if you think it proves me wrong explain because i don't see anything

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Consider yourslef warned for the second time.

Now, if you wish to be involved in a conversation, I suggest you interact with the verse and demonstrate how you believe this proves your point?

You state at the onset that you believe Jesus could not be tempted if he was God because God cannot be tempted. You've been shown directly from Scripture that Jesus is both Human and God. Further you've been shown directly from Scripture that Jesus was tempted in every regard as we are from a passage that also refers to Him as the son of God.

Kindly respond to the point raised.

If you are not able to do so, without the lack of manners, rudeness and personal disrespect you've demonstrated thus far, then this is not the place for you.

It's a shame that you do not see what these characteristics say with regard to the value of your beliefs and the impact that they have upon your behavior, but I'll leave that to you to work out.

Bart

Ok, Ok. But let me correct you. I have not been shown directly throght scripture that Jesus is Man/God. I believe that Heb 4:15 proves my point because it says that their is not a high preist which cannot be touched with the infermeries: but in all points was tempted like as are we, yet without sinning.

This verse shows you that Jesus who was tempted was like us. He was tempted, but he dod not sin. in otherwords he did not give in. It shows that again he was tempted. If he were God he would not have evenso much as been tempted. And i have also given you scripture where he was tempted in the Flesh, he was tempted to go against the obediance of God. But he stcuk through it. Not because he is a man god. But because he had help from the power of God. Which is the biblical definition of Grace. You know the grace that is given to us all. Although it is not free, as most would hope. It comes from obediance. And don't get me wrong, when i am not defending myself constantly i do show the loving and kindness of Jesus Christ. In fact my reason for even starting this, is not nessecarily for my sake but for yours. Because i understand that the church that most of you go to, do not teach the way of Christ in the truth. The make everything so easy, when it is far from it. If you want to get into another debate i would tell you that jesus christ didnt die on a cross but a pole/tree as some call it. So please again show me with scripture that Jesus is Man and God.

Im am going to take a break from this discussion until probibly sunday or so because at 9:00 i have to begin the sabbath, and it doesn't end until Saturday at 9:00. no im not jewish if you are wondering, i just follow the ten commandments.

You are a Jehovah Witness then? I have a lot of books about their teachings including the New World Translation. Perhaps I can help.

Light of Life wrote:Ok, Ok. But let me correct you. I have not been shown directly throght scripture that Jesus is Man/God. I believe that Heb 4:15 proves my point because it says that their is not a high preist which cannot be touched with the infermeries: but in all points was tempted like as are we, yet without sinning.

This verse shows you that Jesus who was tempted was like us. He was tempted, but he dod not sin. in otherwords he did not give in. It shows that again he was tempted. If he were God he would not have evenso much as been tempted. And i have also given you scripture where he was tempted in the Flesh, he was tempted to go against the obediance of God. But he stcuk through it. Not because he is a man god. But because he had help from the power of God. Which is the biblical definition of Grace. You know the grace that is given to us all. Although it is not free, as most would hope. It comes from obediance. And don't get me wrong, when i am not defending myself constantly i do show the loving and kindness of Jesus Christ. In fact my reason for even starting this, is not nessecarily for my sake but for yours. Because i understand that the church that most of you go to, do not teach the way of Christ in the truth. The make everything so easy, when it is far from it. If you want to get into another debate i would tell you that jesus christ didnt die on a cross but a pole/tree as some call it. So please again show me with scripture that Jesus is Man and God.

I have only your conduct in this thread to go by.

Thank you for giving your answer.

I will post scriptural proof as to the divinity and humanity of Christ, which you may or may not accept.

Again, I would point out, that this is not a board dedicated to endless debate with those who have already made up their minds with regard to Christianity, which is defined by the Statement of Belief found on the main board.

I'm not sensing from your conduct thus far, that you are particularly open to understanding the beliefs of this board, nor of orthodox Christianity. That is your perogative, given to you by God Himself. I would state however, that I equally am convinced of the deity of Jesus Christ and the truth of His words, particularly John 14:6 where Jesus states, "I am the way, the truth and the life, No man comes to the Father, but by me." Those who heard him make this statement knew what he was saying. The very words "I AM" which Jesus used repeatedly throughout his ministry as recorded in John were stated in Hebrew where "Yahweh" is actually a form of the Hebrew verb, "to be."

Those who heard him then responded by seeking to stone Him. When asked why, they stated "because, you being a mere man, make yourself out to be God." They knew full well who Jesus claimed to be.

We do not exist to promote Arianism. We do not exist to endlessly go round with those who have already made up their minds and simply want to debate.

Next post will address your request for proof of the deity of Christ.

Consider carefully before you answer if in view of what has been stated about the purpose of this board, if this is the place for you, and if not feel free to find a board where such debate is part of their purpose. There are many.

Bart