Evidence for God from Science

Canuckster1127 wrote:

Kerux wrote:No. We have yet to discuss santification.

Neither were we discussing justification.

I thought we were discussing redemption, adoption and glorification.

You're suggesting redemption and adoption are not included in Justification?

Further, if your going to leap from there to glorification, it seems sanctification should fall somewhere in there, doesn't it.

Not suggesting anything. I was replying to Jac's statement:

We are children of God through Christ, but we are still awaiting our redemption, adoption, and glorification.

Not leaping anywhere either. Jac made the statement, not me.

Perhaps you're leaping into the middle of a discussion Jac and I were having?

Welcome.

Thanks for the invite.

I may. As it stands now, I was just seeking some clarifiacation for something that leapt out at me as I read it.

Kerux:

I'll deal with redemption later on, as that is more complicated. There are several aspects of that doctrine that you've mixed together . . .

As for adoption, notice that the verse you cite does not say that we have been adopted. It says that we have received the spirit of adoption, and the purpose of that is so that we may call out to God. John MacArthur, who is certainly no friend of my position - he believes that we have already been adopted - has argued that this verse does not teach that we have been adopted already. He says:

• We are sons of God, led by the Spirit, because we've been adopted. We've been adopted. And the spirit of adoption here, friends, is not so much talking about the transaction of adoption, but talking about our sense of belonging to God. (MacArthur, "Life in the Spirit" pt 3 (Panorama City, CA: Word of Grace Communications, 1983) GC 45-59)

He offers at OUTSTANDING discussion of the historical background on adoption, even as a I disagree with most of his exegesis. If you can track down that tape, I would suggest you pick it up. It's a good resource.

Now, against this, in the same passage as the one you quoted, Paul says: "And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body." (Rom. 8:23) The adoption and redemption will occur at our resurrection. It is interesting to note that the Bible never says we have been adopted.

On a final note, the passages that said we are predestined to adoption doesn't help you at all. The elect are said to be predestined to three things: adoption, glorification, and an inheritance (see Rom. 8:29-30; Eph. 1:5, 11). We have not yet been glorified or received our inheritance, and thus, it follows that we have not yet been adopted. As an aside, I would suggset looking into the historical background of adoption from both a Jewish and Graeco-Roman perspective. IVP has a good article on it in their Dictionary of New Testament Background, and, of course, the MacArthur tape mentioned above is good, too.

God bless